[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: EXTERNAL: Puppy raising

Fri Jul 30 20:11:57 UTC 2010

Laws aren't needed. most raisers have no problem asking for permission 
and so far Danielle adn I haven't run into many places that won't allow 
puppies in.  I'm just looking for a safer way to keep people from 
bringing puppies and dogs that aren't trained or in training.  I just 
run into this alot so I guess its where I live lol

Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
> Tami, 
> Somewhat you are. I don't understand how a law v. asking permission would keep Mitsy from being attacked while you were training her? People who will let their dogs attack don't much care what the laws say. Also, the way you wrote it, it does sound like you wouldn't want her to be attacked while she was being trained but that it would be acceptable now that she's a working guide. I know that isn't what you mean of course, it was just not what you said. 
> What interference did you get from people on the bus? 
> Again, I still am not getting why laws for puppies in training are needed. Maybe I'm especially dense or we'll have to just agree to disagree?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 8:25 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>
> Rebecca,
>
> Well, ultimately, you need to take your youngster in the places it will be
> working to teach it proper etiquette and to familiarize it with those
> surroundings.  You can pracitce foundation skills and develop some
> familiarity with similar settings that are pet-friendly.  I spent some time
> with Mitzi in outdoor café areas around our old neighborhood before I ever
> took her into a café or restaurant.  Even then it was a coffee shop, and I
> went in long enough to work with her while we ordered, then we came straight
> back out to the outdoor seating where we worked some more on lying down
> under the table and such while she was still very excited from her big
> adventure and all those smells from inside the shop.
>
> Sill, even by that time, I had quite a bit of time and money invested in the
> little beast.  I would not want to be without recourse if some vicious cur
> tied into her while we were training.
>
> There are some milieus where simply asking doesn't really work, though.
> Like riding the bus.  Sooner or later, you have to take the dog on the bus
> to teach it how to behave on the bus.  Stuff like that.  It may be a matter
> of personal definition, but even though Mitzi was doing some limited
> guiding, I would never consider her out of training until we rode the bus.
> Also, we needed to ride the bus to places to work on other facets of guide
> dog training...  And I had to learn to manage the dog on the bus, as well.
> So we went a couple of times with her out of harness, me with cane, and I
> let her become familiar with the bus, the movement, the people, all that,
> and I was able to work on teaching her "under" and learning how to stuff her
> poodliness under the seat at the same time, etc., etc.  It wasn't in my
> plan, but we also got to learn to deal with the hefty amount of interference
> from other passengers involved in just getting on the bus and sitting
> down...  Good grief!
>
> Even when I started taking her into regular restaurants in harness, she was
> still definintely in training.  I would ask and explain to the staff,
> especially when they questioned her status as a guide dog.  She was, in
> fact, guiding by then, so I had some ground to stand on, but she wasn't
> trained, in my opinion, because she hadn't learned yet how to behave
> properly in restaurants...
>
> Am I making any sense at all?  It seemed to me as we learned to work in more
> advanced settings that training in these places mostly involved working with
> Mitzi to keep her focused and on her "indoor" behavior in a stimulus rich
> environment...  Sights! Smells! Sounds! People! Kids! Stuff!  It all drives
> any prior training clean out of a young dog's head.  /smile/  It causes
> young poodles to positively levitate.  /grin/  While wriggling.  You can do
> obedience exercises at home 24 hours a day every day, but the first trip
> into the grocery store will still be a lot of work just overcoming the
> smells.  Then, at some point, you have to suck it up and teach your dog to
> go past the meat counter without insanity.  /grin/
>
> When your dog can guide you past the meat counter, you're doing good.  When
> she can guide you past the meat counter, then sit quietly while you order
> meat, that's when you know there's hope! /lol/  
>
> As for protections for guide dogs in training -- well, the programs have a
> lot invested in those pups even by the time they hit the ground.  An
> owner-trainer may not have money invested in breeding lines and vet care and
> staff to work with puppy raisers, but an owner-trainer tends to have a much
> more limited budget, too.  The percentage of available funds invested in
> that one dog gets pretty high pretty quick.  The time expenditure is pretty
> hefty, too, way more than one would spend on a sweet pet.  Having no
> recourse against some yo-yo with an aggressive untrained dog that ruins your
> guide dog -- or worse -- is just beyond thinking about!  In Oregon, the law
> is not as strong as it is in other states, but it does cover guide dogs in
> training.  Whew!  Not that I have any wish to ever find out how that would
> work in the course of an owner-trained guide.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 8:23 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>
> Hi Meghan. The way you explain the leaving and coming back makes sense.
> You're teaching a very defined skill, unlike with parents who teach "how
> to be a good person" which is very different. In your situation, you're
> trying to stop the dog from barking and you reintroduced the situation
> quickly so the good behavior was reinforced. 
> My problem with the "just leave if the dog acts up" is that it teaches
> the dog that if it is just tired of working, all it need do is act up.
> Your explamation sounds like it teaches the correct behavior v. the
> incorrect one. In fairness, this can be very difficult to keep in mind. 
> I'm still not sure why service dogs in training need the rights that
> guide dog users do. Your thoughts? I guess I don't understand why asking
> for permission and sticking to dog-friendly places wouldn't be enough? 
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:36 AM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: EXTERNAL:[nagdu] Puppy raising
>
> Hi Meghan.
> I would be extremely interested to hear more about your puppy-raising
> experiences.  You have a guide dog, too, don't you?  How does that work?
>
> Or are you between dogs?Tell us all about your puppy!
> Tracy
>
>
>
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