[nagdu] being reported to your school and thoughts on posativetraining methods

Sat Jul 31 16:29:21 UTC 2010

I definitely agree with you that they do put a lot into these dogs, and they 
want to do all that they can to make sure that the dogs that raisers and 
trainers have put so much into do end up doing what they were trained to do. 
Wow, that was a super run-on sentence, but oh well.

I wonder, and I can't remember who else mentioned it, but I do wonder if 
there are more in depth screening methods schools could use before accepting 
students.  You can say anything during an interview, and most people can 
find a few people who will say some good things about them so they can get a 
dog.

I don't know what sort of screening method would weed out the people who are 
going to take the dog home and not work it again for months on end, but it 
would be nice if dogs only went to people who truly utilized them.  There 
will always be people who don't do what they say they will do, though, and 
this is unfortunately the case in all walks of life.

As for rewarding your dog, praise, both verbal and physical is the best 
thing, because it's something you can't ever forget at home.  When I get a 
new puppy, or when I bring home a new guide, I spend a lot of time petting 
and massaging that dog all over.  Quickly, I learn where that dog likes to 
be scratched and petted, and it is an awesome feeling to be able to make 
your dog lean against you with delight as you scritch that perfect place 
that makes her leg thump thump on the ground.

physical praise is also, of course a wonderful thing when you want to praise 
the dog for laying quietly in a meeting or guiding you quietly from a 
lecture hall when you need to scoot out a few minutes early for one reason 
or another.

I too had my first dog in high school, and it really does take a gradual 
building of confidence and courage to stand up for what you know you need to 
do with your dog.

I enjoyed your message.  Take care.

Meghan with Kirby
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] being reported to your school and thoughts on 
posativetraining methods

> Hi.  I find this whole topic very interesting. I have never been
> reported to my school.  I remember that several times my first year or
> so as a guide dog user a few people asked me about the leash
> corrections.  I had mydog in high school my first year I was with her,
> so it took me a while to stand up for my self and tell them that I was
> not abusing her.  One of my teachers went as far as asking me not to
> do leash corrections anymore because it looked bad.  It's not that I
> have to use leash corrections a lot, but in Brie's early years food
> was a great problem.  She was terrible when it came to gumb on the
> floor or anything in the cafiteria.  She has a sensative stomach, so I
> figured it was better to correct her and rework going past the food
> and praising her for avoiding the food, than for her never to learn
> and to get sick all the time.  I hope that made any sense.  Oh, and it
> worked.  She got so much better as the year went on.  One day in high
> school I even dropped a plate of French fries as I was trying to take
> her through a door.  I think it is still one of my finest moments as a
> guide dog user.  She didn't touch it.  She didn't even move.
> Apparently, she just gave me a really funny look, but she was so happy
> when I moved away from the food and praised her for like 5 minutes for
> being so good.
>
> She is very good now in my college cafiteria, and I make sure and
> praise her wen I or someone else drops food and she doesn't even touch
> it.  As for food rewards, I give them very rarely.  Brie has a very
> sensative stomach, and I worry about her getting sick a lot.  Using
> her dogfood works, and I do that sometimes.  I really wish my school
> had begun the clicker training when I was in school.  I think they did
> like the month after I graduated.  :)
>
> I'd like to hear about what others do in place of food rewards.  She
> works very well with just receiving praise, but I am very interested
> to know what other people do as well.
>
> As for the schools owning the dogs, I personally have a very good
> relationship with the people at my school, so I don't feel like they
> are going to take  my dog away any time , and I understand their
> policy of delayed ownership.  I don't know exactly what they call it,
> but it means you can apply for ownership a year or so after getting
> the dog.  They do put alot of time and resources into the dog, and
> some people do not end up using their dogs as guides.  I don't believe
> that it is right for a school to not allow you to have ownership of
> your dog.  I can just understand a little bit where they are coming
> from.  Just myopinion on the matter
> Julie and Brie
>
> On 7/31/10, Meghan Whalen <mewhalen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I entirely agree with you.  I am so glad that I have immediate ownership 
>> of
>> my dog upon graduation.  I'm also glad that the school she is from will
>> contact local athorities to investigate if they think there is abuse.
>>
>> Thankfully, I haven't yet been reported, but I'm sure I'll only be lucky 
>> for
>> so long.
>>
>> I must say though, that it is very very refreshing to see schools
>> introducing clicker training in their programs, and I hope they continue 
>> to
>> further adopt the practices around clicker.  When used correctly, it is 
>> such
>> a wonderful tule.  It also looks much better to the public to see fewer
>> leash corrections.  The simple truth is that you have to look hard to 
>> find
>> training classes for pet dogs at this point that will encourage leash
>> corrections.  All of the classes I have found myself in with my own pet 
>> dogs
>> have been centered on posative reinforcement.  It is high time schools 
>> start
>> treating dogs the way the rest of the world finds it ethical to treat 
>> dogs.
>>
>> I have been instructed to use clicker to shape a solid recall with 
>> Dayton,
>> to teach him to get into his training vest, to help teach him food 
>> refusal,
>> and I must say, the things he has learned with the aid of clicker, he is
>> more excited to do.  He will more than willingly lay down or sit when I 
>> tell
>> him to, but he loves to come, to heal and to put his vest on, because 
>> these
>> are things which have involved clicker.  He adores praise, so he's just 
>> as
>> happy to come to me for a nice scratch behind the ears and under the 
>> chin.
>>
>> Anyways, I've gotten way off topic here.  I am very interested in the
>> opinions of others on food rewards, clicker training and the rest of it. 
>> I
>> know a lot of people don't like the use of food rewards in guide work, 
>> and I
>> know old habits are hard to break, but there has to be a way to at least
>> lessen the need for correction.  Maybe more intensive training needs to 
>> be
>> taken on by puppy raisers with food refusal, dog distractions and the 
>> rest
>> of it.  Dayton is already learning food refusal, and I think that such an
>> early and entensive training process will benifit him in the long run. 
>> He
>> is learning that ignoring the food is not simply something that should be
>> done or he will receive a correction, he is learning that ignoring the 
>> food
>> is a posative thing.  He is ignoring the food because he has posative
>> associations with ignoring it, not because he doesn't want to be slammed
>> with a correction.
>>
>> Okay, I'm really done rambling now.
>>
>> Meghan
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Julie J" <julielj at windstream.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 8:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] being reported to your school
>>
>>
>>> As an owner trainer I am always fascinated by the phenomena of being
>>> reported or reporting to the schools various perceived indiscretions of
>>> guide dog use and abuse.  Certainly I agree that there are horrible 
>>> cases
>>> of abuse out there, but what I hear about 99% of the time are cases that
>>> involve lack of facts, lack of knowledge of guide dogs, revenge or just
>>> plain medaling.
>>>
>>> I honestly do not understand the whole concept of reports to the school.
>>> Why is that people will report to the school but rarely to local police 
>>> or
>>>
>>> animal enforcement agencies?  Why is it that people will rarely just go
>>> directly to the blind guide dog handler and ask what's going on?
>>>
>>> I truly believe that if we want change to occur at the guide dog 
>>> programs
>>> it has to begin with us.  I think calling the programs and making 
>>> reports,
>>>
>>> even legitimate ones, perpetuates the programs custodial attitudes.  Why
>>> not instead work with local law enforcement to address the situation? 
>>> Why
>>>
>>> not instead directly confront the person about their behavior with their
>>> guide dog?  Instead of offering judgment why not try some attempt at
>>> understanding?
>>>
>>> If I am missing something obvious here, please tell me.  I really would
>>> like to understand this.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
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