[nagdu] Gender differences WAS harness signs
Tamara Smith-Kinney
tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Wed Mar 10 17:26:18 UTC 2010
Tracy,
I've upped my self-defense capabilities as I can while my injuries heal. I
couldn't get treatment soon enough to avoid having it turn into
fibromyalgia, but I almost have that licked. Then, it's formal self-defense
classes for me!
I don't' know how to help someone deal with suddenly being treated like an
idiot because they're going blind... I have a pretty good idea how your
husband feels, though! It is very weird, because you know you haven't
changed. Everybody else has. And really, you have plenty to deal with
adapting to new levels of vision loss without all this sudden obnoxious
weirdness from people around you. Good grief! It's awful. I was pretty
lucky when I first started losing my central vision, because I was working
in a good environment and had people around me who were willing to tease me
about my mistakes and stuff but still respected my work and abilities and
personality. I think they set the tone for the rest of company, so I didn't
get lots of crap. Whew! It wasn't until I went to the Living Skills Center
that I discovered how awful people can be to you just because you're blind.
Ugh!
I did find it helpful just being around people who would treat me like I was
still, well, me. And who could take my struggles with the actual going
blindness of it all in stride, acknowledging them and even being willing to
tease or to offer useful suggestions in a normal way one might suggest an
addition to a recipe. If that makes sense. Or who would ask questions
about this or that facet of how I was dealing with it and listen to my
answers and show some comprehension and acceptance that in some ways I
wasn't quite up to par in some basic skills because I was learning them from
the ground up again.
I dunno if that makes sense or not. I told myself at first that I wasn't
going let stuff like being treated like an idiot or helpless pathetic thing
get to me, but... It does, like it or not. And you can't change people
like that. Sooner or later, I guess, you just come to an inner resolution
of your own that allows you to keep your sanity and sense of self.
Then you can see that those people are the complete idiots, and that they
are so out of touch with reality that they are actually pretty funny. In a
bad sitcom way. /grin/ Once I reached that piont, I had a hard time not
doubling over laughing because somebody said something so stupid in that
condescending, patronizing tone... Well, I have snickered a time or two
when some fool takes me by surprise. Otherwise, I just can't manage to take
the crap seriously anymore.
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tracy Carcione
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 5:01 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Gender differences WAS harness signs
Tami, it is outrageous that you were attacked by staff at the Living
Skills Center! If I'd been attacked, I expect I would feel more anxious
about the various jerks I encounter. Perhaps you could take a
self-defense course? I hear it can be a real confidence-builder for those
uncomfortable situations.
I wonder if that would be one of those leave-the-dog-at-home situations?
Ben doesn't mind when my husband and I are dancing, but he might care if
he thought someone were attacking me.
A sort of funny thing happened in class once. We were working an evening
route, and I was walking along by myself with my dog when I heard someone
sneaking around behind me in the nearby parking lot. My city instincts
kicked in and I got nervous. I think I may have challenged whoever it was
in my most ferocious New Yorkese, like, Hey who's there! Or maybe I just
hustled away from there. Turns out it was the instructor following us. I
think I surprised him. But I don't like being followed around in the
night!
But before, I was talking about how people treat my husband like an idiot,
now that he's blinder than he used to be. Not in a dangerous bullying
way, just the "Here deary" way, same as they do me. I wish I could help
him deal with it. It is very annoying. Or convince people that blind
people are not actually idiots. But some people just can't be convinced,
just like some can't be convinced that No petting the dog applies to them.
Tracy
> Tracy,
>
> It's hard to say, really, if it's because I'm a woman who is blind or just
> because I'm blind. Maybe it would be more accurate to say the gender
> perception is on my part? And it could have more to do with size and
> build
> than with how body parts are organized. /smile/ When my physical space
> is
> violated -- and that now extends to my dog -- I guess there's part of me
> that would like to be big and brawny enough to have the option of knocking
> the offender down. /rin/ Moreso, there have been a few times I've
> realized
> they were likely to knock me down because they were doing the big bad
> bully
> thing, clearly seeing a blind person as easy prey. It hasn't ever gone
> that
> far, outside of the living skills program, but I do not like feeling
> vulnerable that way!
>
> I'm also probably a lot more anxious when I perceive even a possible
> physical threat because I was assaulted there, and I am still having to
> pay
> for treatment for injuries from more than one staff person. So I'm sure I
> have more of a tendency to wonder if someone acting hinky is going to
> "get"
> me and wonder if I need to be prepared to "get" them first or if I can
> "get"
> them to not "get" me, or whatever. It's not a way I am accustomed to
> thinking or feeling, and it's not really all that dramatic and strong,
> just
> uncomfortable.
>
> I do associate those feelings with growing up in a place where women would
> be doing great to move up to second class citizen. Now that I'm back in
> the
> ranks of the insignificant, not "real" people, I do sometimes feel there's
> a
> gender bias involved where they may not really be. Huh...
>
> Either way, the regular encounters with boneheads, bozos and jerks need to
> be dealt with constructively, even if that just means getting them out of
> your way so you can continue down the sidewalk. /smile/ Whatever
> motivated
> a person to do something negative or even harmful or dangerous is not
> what's
> important.
>
> Learning to deal with the negative emotions that I experience as a result
> is
> difficult, but that's another of those things we each have to learn to
> deal
> with in our own way. /smile/
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 11:57 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Gender differences WAS harness signs
>
> Tami, are you sure you're getting the helpless idiot treatment because
> you're a woman? I get it too, and it drives me buggy, but my husband is
> losing his sight, and one of the things he hates about it is that so many
> people treat him like a helpless idiot. I don't know how to help him deal
> with it, either. There is the old snappy comeback "only my wife calls me
> sweetie" for instance, but it's hard to have the snappy comeback when you
> need it.
> Tracy
>
>
>> Oh, the gender difference drives me batty sometimes. Well, quite a bit
>> of
>> the time. /grin/ I prefer using direct, clear communication to convey
>> and
>> receive thoughts and ideas. But, no, I've developed this extensive
>> repertoire of indirect, even -- I daresay! -- passive aggressive, means
>> of
>> convincing people to just stay out of my way and let me go about my
>> business.
>>
>> It has been very hard to get used to, as has being treated like I'm
>> insignificant and helpless and, well, you know a l'il lady. Ugh! I
>> don't
>> notice it so much now that I've had plenty of exposure, but at first it
>> just
>> got me all hot and bothered.
>>
>> The awareness that li'l ol' me and my funny poodle dog represent blind
>> people and guide dog users the world over also makes dealing with the
>> everyday space invasions, disruptions, obstructions, etc., more
>> stressful.
>> It also makes coming up with a response I can live with difficult. I
>> guess
>> I've adapted enough to have all those schticks and spiels and whatever
>> to
>> keep it down to a bearable level, and I'm used to it enough that I don't
>> even notice it sometimes, or at least I accept it as part of walking
>> around
>> doing my thing. Especially when I have to take the bus or the train to
>> do
>> my thing! I love having the bus and train, and I love riding them and
>> listening to the people around me because I am an inveterate people
>> watcher.
>>
>> I just prefer the people to stay out of my space and mind their own
>> business! /lol/
>>
>> I've also decided to go ahead and be effing rude when someone crosses
>> the
>> line and a civil response doesn't work to get them back onto their own
>> side.
>> If onlookers want to think that blind people are inherently obnoxious
>> because of it, oh, well! If they're close enough to observe my
>> response/reaction, they're close enough to see what provoked it. I
>> can't
>> help it if they have no judgment of their own!
>>
>> Every now and then when I start yapping on about some of these things we
>> li'l blind ladies have to put up with -- either something I heard about
>> or
>> something that happened to me -- to DD, he gets all manly and
>> belligerent.
>> "I just don't have patience for that sort of thing," he will say darkly.
>> "I'll only put up with it so long. Then I'll cold cock 'em!"
>>
>> Ah, to be a big, tall, strapping fella! /grin/ In theory, that simple,
>> straightforward, direct solution to the problem sounds much too
>> tempting.
>> Then I remember that I don't have the physique for it anyway, so I
>> couldn't
>> really make it work. Which is probably why I can cheerfully admit to
>> letting my brain carry on with images of cane whacking someone about the
>> head and shoulders while my good sense searches for a practical
>> response.
>> /evil grin/ The mental image is very, very satisfying to my inner, uh,
>> whatever you want to call it; also, the imaginary cane is much more
>> substantial and impressive a weapon than the light things I actually
>> carry
>> in my back pocket or purse. Unfortunately, actually following through
>> on
>> the image would just make me look really, really, foolish and, honestly,
>> completely nutty. /grin/
>>
>> Not that DD goes around knocking down people who annoy him! Which is a
>> good
>> thing for me. /grin/ Still, he does have the option of looking stern
>> and
>> puffing up the muscles just a bit to remind people he can if he wants
>> to.
>> I
>> try that on, and it just gets me more grief. That posturing is
>> something
>> I
>> do when ribbing with my buds to make them laugh. /lol/
>>
>> Stepping between someone and my dog is something I do, too, but then I'm
>> face to face with some fool who doesn't respect me. It will suddenly
>> occur
>> to me that this may not turn out well for me if the person's aggression
>> turns physical. Apparently, my years growing up as a skinny, shirley
>> temple
>> clone of a brainy girl taught me something, because in my youth actually
>> pulled that sort of thing off with violently mentally unstable (too much
>> of
>> that inbred population!) men who were working up to an assault on one or
>> another of my friends. There I would suddenly be, nose-to-nose with
>> someone
>> much bigger than me bent on irrational violence... Oops! But they
>> always
>> backed down in the end. Huh. Then I grew up and moved away and didn't
>> have
>> to use that strange little skill until I started going about being all
>> blind
>> and stuff...
>>
>> Then again, I've been paying a lot for physical therapy for attacks from
>> behind from people who were being paid to help me. So now I have this
>> sense
>> of vulnerability that I really hate. I've also learned some techniques
>> to
>> adapt my cowgirl physical self-defense skills to use on humans. Haven't
>> had
>> to use that, but wish I had gone with my gut when the attacks occurred!
>> I
>> had not previously been subject to physical violence in my adult life,
>> so
>> just wasn't expecting it, tried to remain calm and use passive
>> self-defense
>> unstil I could deal with it in a civilized manner... Oh. Bad move on
>> my
>> part. We blind people are, like or not, fair game. Those people who
>> inflicted the injuries I continue to recover from -- and that others are
>> paying to recover from -- still have jobs.
>>
>> Speaking of learning things the hard way! Be careful what you type when
>> you're using JAWS and have dogs around. /lol/ I took a little break and
>> was
>> putzing in the kitchen, bent over to pick up something I had dropped
>> just
>> as
>> Daisy hound decided to dash in front of me... Taking a coonhound skull
>> ridge to the orbital bone didn't quite cold cock me, but I have felt a
>> little strange for the past few minutes. Apparently, she is more
>> hard-headed than I am. /grin/
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Jeanette Beal
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 5:58 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] harness signs
>>
>> I'm wondering how much of the interaction between public and dog is
>> gender-based to the handler? As a woman, I know that I'm interacted with
>> on
>> a slightly different level than men - called 'little lady' by
>> many-a-older-guy on public transit, etc. I know there was a study done
>> recently (um, 20/20 special so not really a study) with a blind man & a
>> blind woman trying to buy pastries in a shop and the woman was actually
>> stood up for/defended more readily by an incredulous public than the
>> man.
>> Is
>> this because women are inherently viewed as inferior and in need of
>> protection? Probably.
>> So when a female handler walks around with her dog is it much easier to
>> disregard her and interact with her dog? Perhaps. I've had men spit in
>> my
>> face because I told them to leave my dog alone. Granted he spit in my
>> face
>> after he started petting my dog and I said no and he said F-off and I
>> said
>> oh really? And stepped between dog & dude and dude then pushed at me so
>> I
>> slapped him in the face and he spit on me and then....ran away. But the
>> main
>> point was I said no and he said "so?" and continued his bad behavior.
>> I have a hard time with this subject. It's so rooted in my need for
>> safety
>> in public as a woman - using public transit and getting groped by a dude
>> behind or next to me feels as dirty and disgusting as unauthorized
>> petting
>> of my dog by a stranger. So how do I reconcile my need for safety and
>> autonomy with the day-to-day hassles all handlers have in public?
>> I do so by not allowing people to pet my dog. By demanding that I be
>> asked
>> first. By expecting my answer to be respected - if I say no it means no.
>> This goes for my body as much as my dog's. And unfortunately the
>> waiting
>> public takes away that I'm a rude, withholding human. But my safety is
>> more
>> important than public image.
>> Unfortunately we aren't in a vacuum and all blind people speak for all
>> blind
>> people in front of AB folks. So when someone lets the public pet their
>> dog
>> in harness they send a message that I will to. And when I say no and am
>> assumed rude I send a message that all blind people are rude.
>> It's a crappy inter-connected all-disabled-folk-are-the-same world.
>> Jeanette
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 8:12 AM, Albert J Rizzi
>> <albert at myblindspot.org>wrote:
>>
>>> now there is the honest one in the group. I must confess that I too
>>> enjoy
>>> it
>>> when people take notice of my handsome lad. I do stop to let him take
>>> in
>>> the
>>> praise at times, though I always take his harness off. Now before you
>>> all
>>> go
>>> mad about that, it is a conscious decision I make and am willing to
>>> make
>>> for
>>> my dog and all the good work he does, I feel that if time allotted when
>>> I
>>> take the harness off it reinforces the work thing and out of work thing
>> for
>>> the dog. It also embarrasses the petting offender and they always
>>> insist
>> I
>>> not go to any great lengths, which always allows for a honest and open
>>> I
>>> really should bet t my meeting.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:39 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] harness signs
>>>
>>> Hmm... Maybe someone should make a project out of finding a mutt-ugly
>>> scurvy cur, slappying a guide dog harness on it and heading out into
>> public
>>> to see what happens? /grin/ I've thought of designing a special
>>> poodle
>>> cut
>>> to uglify Mitzi... I could have the groomer do her all lopsided and
>>> patch
>>> and stuff, then put odd dye patches on her here and there...
>>>
>>> Whaddaya think? Should I go for it? /grin/
>>>
>>> Or maybe someone could invent a spray, like that stuff that is supposed
>>> to
>>> keep pets away from certain areas. In fact, isn't it called "Pet
>>> Away?"
>> or
>>> stomething? Maybe if we sprayed are dogs with anti-human pheromones we
>>> could go about our business in peace? /lol/
>>>
>>> Okay, so my dirty little secret is that I've sort of gotten to enjoy
>>> the
>>> attention my poodle gets, now that we've learned to deal and move on.
>>> Unless she's in hussy mode, in which case, I just have to deal until I
>>> can
>>> make a graceful exit or haul out the jaws of life to separate her from
>>> the
>>> bestest friend ever she just made. /smile/ I figure I can embarrass
>>> myself
>>> enough that I may as well let the dog find ways to embarrass me so long
>>> as
>>> it makes everybody happy... Sigh. Maybe it has something to do with
>>> living
>>> in Portland? Part of me remembers the place as the oversized redneck
>>> town
>>> of my youth; it's fun talking to long-time resident cabbies who
>>> remember
>> it
>>> the same way. But in the past (I will not admit how many) years, it's
>>> grown
>>> and changed along and now it's sort of... Funky? Funny? Kind of
>>> getting
>> to
>>> be cosmopolitan but with a super progressive political bent and a
>>> strong
>>> flavor of small-town friendliness. It can make going out and about a
>>> lot
>>> of
>>> fun, in a funy, weird way.
>>>
>>> So long as one remembers to take into account the growing number of
>>> homeless
>>> people with dogs of uncertain temperament downtown... That population
>>> has
>>> grown over the past few years, and while the scary dogs we've passed
>>> have
>>> been kept under control by their ragged and dirty humans, it seems to
>>> take
>>> a
>>> lot of effort from the human to keep the dog from going for my sweet
>>> precious. Yikes! Still, with the housing situation here, as in so
>>> many
>>> places, it's to be expected. Sigh. Otherwise, though, Portland is a
>>> pretty
>>> cool place.
>>>
>>> You just don't stand a prayer of going more than five steps without
>> someone
>>> saying something about your dog. /grin/
>>>
>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Albert J Rizzi
>>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:05 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] harness signs
>>>
>>> What if we all got the ugliest dogs imaginable? Do you think that would
>> cut
>>> down on the petting distractions?
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marsha Drenth
>>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:39 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] harness signs
>>>
>>> Now here is where I have seen a improvement. My husband purchased me a
>> sign
>>> for my pup for the harness for Christmas, and she has been wearing it
>>> since.
>>> Granted not all that long. But I have had only one person try to pet my
>> pup
>>> since. I don't think this person could read, and most likely had other
>>> disabilities. Before, I had so many people try to pet her. I was trying
>> and
>>> just dreaded going places because of the number of people who wanted to
>> pet
>>> her. So in my situation, the sign has definetly worked wonders!
>>>
>>> JMO
>>> Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Julie J
>>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 3:43 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] harness signs was guide dogs
>>>
>>> I don't think the signs make any difference anyway.
>>>
>>> I have a sign on Monty's harness that says "Please don't pet me I'm
>>> working". For folks who have difficulty with words there is also a
>> picture
>>> of a hand reaching to pet a dog with a giant red slash through it.
>>> You'd
>>> think people would get the hint, but they don't. I have noticed
>>> absolutely
>>> no difference in the amount of petafiles since I started with the sign.
>>>
>>> Just today I had some guy reach out to pet Monty just as we're getting
>>> ready
>>>
>>> to cross the street of all things. He explained that he had been
>>> petting
>>> the dog in training on the college campus earlier. As if that made it
>> okay
>>> or something. Torks me. But Monty got my revenge, he backed up and
>>> gave
>>> the death ray eyeball look. LOL Go Monty!
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Meghan" <meghan at n-republic.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:15 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dogs
>>>
>>>
>>> > No, they don't give you a sign for the harness, but you get cards
>>> that
>>> you
>>>
>>> > can hand out.
>>> >
>>> > They make it clear that they discourage petting, but they advise you
>>> on
>>> > how to approach it if you are going to allow it, too.
>>> >
>>> > Hope that helps,
>>> > Meghan
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Jennifer L Finley" <jenniferfinley at embarqmail.com>
>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 3:28 PM
>>> > Subject: [nagdu] guide dogs
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Does the seeing eye have the please don't pet me signs? Do they use
>>> >> anything to let the public know to not pet the dog?
>>> >> _______________________________________________
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