[nagdu] Gender differences WAS harness signs
Tracy Carcione
carcione at access.net
Wed Mar 10 19:47:48 UTC 2010
Thanks Tami, that's quite helpful. My man has a fine sense of irony and
satire. Maybe he too can learn to look at these idiots as people from a
silly sitcom. I figured you'd understand, going through it yourself.
Tracy
> Tracy,
>
> I've upped my self-defense capabilities as I can while my injuries heal.
> I
> couldn't get treatment soon enough to avoid having it turn into
> fibromyalgia, but I almost have that licked. Then, it's formal
> self-defense
> classes for me!
>
> I don't' know how to help someone deal with suddenly being treated like an
> idiot because they're going blind... I have a pretty good idea how your
> husband feels, though! It is very weird, because you know you haven't
> changed. Everybody else has. And really, you have plenty to deal with
> adapting to new levels of vision loss without all this sudden obnoxious
> weirdness from people around you. Good grief! It's awful. I was pretty
> lucky when I first started losing my central vision, because I was working
> in a good environment and had people around me who were willing to tease
> me
> about my mistakes and stuff but still respected my work and abilities and
> personality. I think they set the tone for the rest of company, so I
> didn't
> get lots of crap. Whew! It wasn't until I went to the Living Skills
> Center
> that I discovered how awful people can be to you just because you're
> blind.
> Ugh!
>
> I did find it helpful just being around people who would treat me like I
> was
> still, well, me. And who could take my struggles with the actual going
> blindness of it all in stride, acknowledging them and even being willing
> to
> tease or to offer useful suggestions in a normal way one might suggest an
> addition to a recipe. If that makes sense. Or who would ask questions
> about this or that facet of how I was dealing with it and listen to my
> answers and show some comprehension and acceptance that in some ways I
> wasn't quite up to par in some basic skills because I was learning them
> from
> the ground up again.
>
> I dunno if that makes sense or not. I told myself at first that I wasn't
> going let stuff like being treated like an idiot or helpless pathetic
> thing
> get to me, but... It does, like it or not. And you can't change people
> like that. Sooner or later, I guess, you just come to an inner resolution
> of your own that allows you to keep your sanity and sense of self.
>
> Then you can see that those people are the complete idiots, and that they
> are so out of touch with reality that they are actually pretty funny. In
> a
> bad sitcom way. /grin/ Once I reached that piont, I had a hard time not
> doubling over laughing because somebody said something so stupid in that
> condescending, patronizing tone... Well, I have snickered a time or two
> when some fool takes me by surprise. Otherwise, I just can't manage to
> take
> the crap seriously anymore.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 5:01 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Gender differences WAS harness signs
>
> Tami, it is outrageous that you were attacked by staff at the Living
> Skills Center! If I'd been attacked, I expect I would feel more anxious
> about the various jerks I encounter. Perhaps you could take a
> self-defense course? I hear it can be a real confidence-builder for those
> uncomfortable situations.
> I wonder if that would be one of those leave-the-dog-at-home situations?
> Ben doesn't mind when my husband and I are dancing, but he might care if
> he thought someone were attacking me.
>
> A sort of funny thing happened in class once. We were working an evening
> route, and I was walking along by myself with my dog when I heard someone
> sneaking around behind me in the nearby parking lot. My city instincts
> kicked in and I got nervous. I think I may have challenged whoever it was
> in my most ferocious New Yorkese, like, Hey who's there! Or maybe I just
> hustled away from there. Turns out it was the instructor following us. I
> think I surprised him. But I don't like being followed around in the
> night!
>
> But before, I was talking about how people treat my husband like an idiot,
> now that he's blinder than he used to be. Not in a dangerous bullying
> way, just the "Here deary" way, same as they do me. I wish I could help
> him deal with it. It is very annoying. Or convince people that blind
> people are not actually idiots. But some people just can't be convinced,
> just like some can't be convinced that No petting the dog applies to them.
> Tracy
>
>> Tracy,
>>
>> It's hard to say, really, if it's because I'm a woman who is blind or
>> just
>> because I'm blind. Maybe it would be more accurate to say the gender
>> perception is on my part? And it could have more to do with size and
>> build
>> than with how body parts are organized. /smile/ When my physical space
>> is
>> violated -- and that now extends to my dog -- I guess there's part of me
>> that would like to be big and brawny enough to have the option of
>> knocking
>> the offender down. /rin/ Moreso, there have been a few times I've
>> realized
>> they were likely to knock me down because they were doing the big bad
>> bully
>> thing, clearly seeing a blind person as easy prey. It hasn't ever gone
>> that
>> far, outside of the living skills program, but I do not like feeling
>> vulnerable that way!
>>
>> I'm also probably a lot more anxious when I perceive even a possible
>> physical threat because I was assaulted there, and I am still having to
>> pay
>> for treatment for injuries from more than one staff person. So I'm sure
>> I
>> have more of a tendency to wonder if someone acting hinky is going to
>> "get"
>> me and wonder if I need to be prepared to "get" them first or if I can
>> "get"
>> them to not "get" me, or whatever. It's not a way I am accustomed to
>> thinking or feeling, and it's not really all that dramatic and strong,
>> just
>> uncomfortable.
>>
>> I do associate those feelings with growing up in a place where women
>> would
>> be doing great to move up to second class citizen. Now that I'm back in
>> the
>> ranks of the insignificant, not "real" people, I do sometimes feel
>> there's
>> a
>> gender bias involved where they may not really be. Huh...
>>
>> Either way, the regular encounters with boneheads, bozos and jerks need
>> to
>> be dealt with constructively, even if that just means getting them out
>> of
>> your way so you can continue down the sidewalk. /smile/ Whatever
>> motivated
>> a person to do something negative or even harmful or dangerous is not
>> what's
>> important.
>>
>> Learning to deal with the negative emotions that I experience as a
>> result
>> is
>> difficult, but that's another of those things we each have to learn to
>> deal
>> with in our own way. /smile/
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Tracy Carcione
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 11:57 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Gender differences WAS harness signs
>>
>> Tami, are you sure you're getting the helpless idiot treatment because
>> you're a woman? I get it too, and it drives me buggy, but my husband is
>> losing his sight, and one of the things he hates about it is that so
>> many
>> people treat him like a helpless idiot. I don't know how to help him
>> deal
>> with it, either. There is the old snappy comeback "only my wife calls
>> me
>> sweetie" for instance, but it's hard to have the snappy comeback when
>> you
>> need it.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>> Oh, the gender difference drives me batty sometimes. Well, quite a bit
>>> of
>>> the time. /grin/ I prefer using direct, clear communication to convey
>>> and
>>> receive thoughts and ideas. But, no, I've developed this extensive
>>> repertoire of indirect, even -- I daresay! -- passive aggressive, means
>>> of
>>> convincing people to just stay out of my way and let me go about my
>>> business.
>>>
>>> It has been very hard to get used to, as has being treated like I'm
>>> insignificant and helpless and, well, you know a l'il lady. Ugh! I
>>> don't
>>> notice it so much now that I've had plenty of exposure, but at first it
>>> just
>>> got me all hot and bothered.
>>>
>>> The awareness that li'l ol' me and my funny poodle dog represent blind
>>> people and guide dog users the world over also makes dealing with the
>>> everyday space invasions, disruptions, obstructions, etc., more
>>> stressful.
>>> It also makes coming up with a response I can live with difficult. I
>>> guess
>>> I've adapted enough to have all those schticks and spiels and whatever
>>> to
>>> keep it down to a bearable level, and I'm used to it enough that I
>>> don't
>>> even notice it sometimes, or at least I accept it as part of walking
>>> around
>>> doing my thing. Especially when I have to take the bus or the train to
>>> do
>>> my thing! I love having the bus and train, and I love riding them and
>>> listening to the people around me because I am an inveterate people
>>> watcher.
>>>
>>> I just prefer the people to stay out of my space and mind their own
>>> business! /lol/
>>>
>>> I've also decided to go ahead and be effing rude when someone crosses
>>> the
>>> line and a civil response doesn't work to get them back onto their own
>>> side.
>>> If onlookers want to think that blind people are inherently obnoxious
>>> because of it, oh, well! If they're close enough to observe my
>>> response/reaction, they're close enough to see what provoked it. I
>>> can't
>>> help it if they have no judgment of their own!
>>>
>>> Every now and then when I start yapping on about some of these things
>>> we
>>> li'l blind ladies have to put up with -- either something I heard about
>>> or
>>> something that happened to me -- to DD, he gets all manly and
>>> belligerent.
>>> "I just don't have patience for that sort of thing," he will say
>>> darkly.
>>> "I'll only put up with it so long. Then I'll cold cock 'em!"
>>>
>>> Ah, to be a big, tall, strapping fella! /grin/ In theory, that
>>> simple,
>>> straightforward, direct solution to the problem sounds much too
>>> tempting.
>>> Then I remember that I don't have the physique for it anyway, so I
>>> couldn't
>>> really make it work. Which is probably why I can cheerfully admit to
>>> letting my brain carry on with images of cane whacking someone about
>>> the
>>> head and shoulders while my good sense searches for a practical
>>> response.
>>> /evil grin/ The mental image is very, very satisfying to my inner, uh,
>>> whatever you want to call it; also, the imaginary cane is much more
>>> substantial and impressive a weapon than the light things I actually
>>> carry
>>> in my back pocket or purse. Unfortunately, actually following through
>>> on
>>> the image would just make me look really, really, foolish and,
>>> honestly,
>>> completely nutty. /grin/
>>>
>>> Not that DD goes around knocking down people who annoy him! Which is a
>>> good
>>> thing for me. /grin/ Still, he does have the option of looking stern
>>> and
>>> puffing up the muscles just a bit to remind people he can if he wants
>>> to.
>>> I
>>> try that on, and it just gets me more grief. That posturing is
>>> something
>>> I
>>> do when ribbing with my buds to make them laugh. /lol/
>>>
>>> Stepping between someone and my dog is something I do, too, but then
>>> I'm
>>> face to face with some fool who doesn't respect me. It will suddenly
>>> occur
>>> to me that this may not turn out well for me if the person's aggression
>>> turns physical. Apparently, my years growing up as a skinny, shirley
>>> temple
>>> clone of a brainy girl taught me something, because in my youth
>>> actually
>>> pulled that sort of thing off with violently mentally unstable (too
>>> much
>>> of
>>> that inbred population!) men who were working up to an assault on one
>>> or
>>> another of my friends. There I would suddenly be, nose-to-nose with
>>> someone
>>> much bigger than me bent on irrational violence... Oops! But they
>>> always
>>> backed down in the end. Huh. Then I grew up and moved away and didn't
>>> have
>>> to use that strange little skill until I started going about being all
>>> blind
>>> and stuff...
>>>
>>> Then again, I've been paying a lot for physical therapy for attacks
>>> from
>>> behind from people who were being paid to help me. So now I have this
>>> sense
>>> of vulnerability that I really hate. I've also learned some techniques
>>> to
>>> adapt my cowgirl physical self-defense skills to use on humans.
>>> Haven't
>>> had
>>> to use that, but wish I had gone with my gut when the attacks occurred!
>>> I
>>> had not previously been subject to physical violence in my adult life,
>>> so
>>> just wasn't expecting it, tried to remain calm and use passive
>>> self-defense
>>> unstil I could deal with it in a civilized manner... Oh. Bad move on
>>> my
>>> part. We blind people are, like or not, fair game. Those people who
>>> inflicted the injuries I continue to recover from -- and that others
>>> are
>>> paying to recover from -- still have jobs.
>>>
>>> Speaking of learning things the hard way! Be careful what you type
>>> when
>>> you're using JAWS and have dogs around. /lol/ I took a little break
>>> and
>>> was
>>> putzing in the kitchen, bent over to pick up something I had dropped
>>> just
>>> as
>>> Daisy hound decided to dash in front of me... Taking a coonhound skull
>>> ridge to the orbital bone didn't quite cold cock me, but I have felt a
>>> little strange for the past few minutes. Apparently, she is more
>>> hard-headed than I am. /grin/
>>>
>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Jeanette Beal
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 5:58 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] harness signs
>>>
>>> I'm wondering how much of the interaction between public and dog is
>>> gender-based to the handler? As a woman, I know that I'm interacted
>>> with
>>> on
>>> a slightly different level than men - called 'little lady' by
>>> many-a-older-guy on public transit, etc. I know there was a study done
>>> recently (um, 20/20 special so not really a study) with a blind man & a
>>> blind woman trying to buy pastries in a shop and the woman was actually
>>> stood up for/defended more readily by an incredulous public than the
>>> man.
>>> Is
>>> this because women are inherently viewed as inferior and in need of
>>> protection? Probably.
>>> So when a female handler walks around with her dog is it much easier
>>> to
>>> disregard her and interact with her dog? Perhaps. I've had men spit in
>>> my
>>> face because I told them to leave my dog alone. Granted he spit in my
>>> face
>>> after he started petting my dog and I said no and he said F-off and I
>>> said
>>> oh really? And stepped between dog & dude and dude then pushed at me so
>>> I
>>> slapped him in the face and he spit on me and then....ran away. But the
>>> main
>>> point was I said no and he said "so?" and continued his bad behavior.
>>> I have a hard time with this subject. It's so rooted in my need for
>>> safety
>>> in public as a woman - using public transit and getting groped by a
>>> dude
>>> behind or next to me feels as dirty and disgusting as unauthorized
>>> petting
>>> of my dog by a stranger. So how do I reconcile my need for safety and
>>> autonomy with the day-to-day hassles all handlers have in public?
>>> I do so by not allowing people to pet my dog. By demanding that I be
>>> asked
>>> first. By expecting my answer to be respected - if I say no it means
>>> no.
>>> This goes for my body as much as my dog's. And unfortunately the
>>> waiting
>>> public takes away that I'm a rude, withholding human. But my safety is
>>> more
>>> important than public image.
>>> Unfortunately we aren't in a vacuum and all blind people speak for all
>>> blind
>>> people in front of AB folks. So when someone lets the public pet their
>>> dog
>>> in harness they send a message that I will to. And when I say no and am
>>> assumed rude I send a message that all blind people are rude.
>>> It's a crappy inter-connected all-disabled-folk-are-the-same world.
>>> Jeanette
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 8:12 AM, Albert J Rizzi
>>> <albert at myblindspot.org>wrote:
>>>
>>>> now there is the honest one in the group. I must confess that I too
>>>> enjoy
>>>> it
>>>> when people take notice of my handsome lad. I do stop to let him take
>>>> in
>>>> the
>>>> praise at times, though I always take his harness off. Now before you
>>>> all
>>>> go
>>>> mad about that, it is a conscious decision I make and am willing to
>>>> make
>>>> for
>>>> my dog and all the good work he does, I feel that if time allotted
>>>> when
>>>> I
>>>> take the harness off it reinforces the work thing and out of work
>>>> thing
>>> for
>>>> the dog. It also embarrasses the petting offender and they always
>>>> insist
>>> I
>>>> not go to any great lengths, which always allows for a honest and open
>>>> I
>>>> really should bet t my meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>> who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:39 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] harness signs
>>>>
>>>> Hmm... Maybe someone should make a project out of finding a mutt-ugly
>>>> scurvy cur, slappying a guide dog harness on it and heading out into
>>> public
>>>> to see what happens? /grin/ I've thought of designing a special
>>>> poodle
>>>> cut
>>>> to uglify Mitzi... I could have the groomer do her all lopsided and
>>>> patch
>>>> and stuff, then put odd dye patches on her here and there...
>>>>
>>>> Whaddaya think? Should I go for it? /grin/
>>>>
>>>> Or maybe someone could invent a spray, like that stuff that is
>>>> supposed
>>>> to
>>>> keep pets away from certain areas. In fact, isn't it called "Pet
>>>> Away?"
>>> or
>>>> stomething? Maybe if we sprayed are dogs with anti-human pheromones
>>>> we
>>>> could go about our business in peace? /lol/
>>>>
>>>> Okay, so my dirty little secret is that I've sort of gotten to enjoy
>>>> the
>>>> attention my poodle gets, now that we've learned to deal and move on.
>>>> Unless she's in hussy mode, in which case, I just have to deal until I
>>>> can
>>>> make a graceful exit or haul out the jaws of life to separate her from
>>>> the
>>>> bestest friend ever she just made. /smile/ I figure I can embarrass
>>>> myself
>>>> enough that I may as well let the dog find ways to embarrass me so
>>>> long
>>>> as
>>>> it makes everybody happy... Sigh. Maybe it has something to do with
>>>> living
>>>> in Portland? Part of me remembers the place as the oversized redneck
>>>> town
>>>> of my youth; it's fun talking to long-time resident cabbies who
>>>> remember
>>> it
>>>> the same way. But in the past (I will not admit how many) years, it's
>>>> grown
>>>> and changed along and now it's sort of... Funky? Funny? Kind of
>>>> getting
>>> to
>>>> be cosmopolitan but with a super progressive political bent and a
>>>> strong
>>>> flavor of small-town friendliness. It can make going out and about a
>>>> lot
>>>> of
>>>> fun, in a funy, weird way.
>>>>
>>>> So long as one remembers to take into account the growing number of
>>>> homeless
>>>> people with dogs of uncertain temperament downtown... That population
>>>> has
>>>> grown over the past few years, and while the scary dogs we've passed
>>>> have
>>>> been kept under control by their ragged and dirty humans, it seems to
>>>> take
>>>> a
>>>> lot of effort from the human to keep the dog from going for my sweet
>>>> precious. Yikes! Still, with the housing situation here, as in so
>>>> many
>>>> places, it's to be expected. Sigh. Otherwise, though, Portland is a
>>>> pretty
>>>> cool place.
>>>>
>>>> You just don't stand a prayer of going more than five steps without
>>> someone
>>>> saying something about your dog. /grin/
>>>>
>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Albert J Rizzi
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:05 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] harness signs
>>>>
>>>> What if we all got the ugliest dogs imaginable? Do you think that
>>>> would
>>> cut
>>>> down on the petting distractions?
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>> who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Marsha Drenth
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:39 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] harness signs
>>>>
>>>> Now here is where I have seen a improvement. My husband purchased me a
>>> sign
>>>> for my pup for the harness for Christmas, and she has been wearing it
>>>> since.
>>>> Granted not all that long. But I have had only one person try to pet
>>>> my
>>> pup
>>>> since. I don't think this person could read, and most likely had other
>>>> disabilities. Before, I had so many people try to pet her. I was
>>>> trying
>>> and
>>>> just dreaded going places because of the number of people who wanted
>>>> to
>>> pet
>>>> her. So in my situation, the sign has definetly worked wonders!
>>>>
>>>> JMO
>>>> Marsha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Julie J
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 3:43 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] harness signs was guide dogs
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the signs make any difference anyway.
>>>>
>>>> I have a sign on Monty's harness that says "Please don't pet me I'm
>>>> working". For folks who have difficulty with words there is also a
>>> picture
>>>> of a hand reaching to pet a dog with a giant red slash through it.
>>>> You'd
>>>> think people would get the hint, but they don't. I have noticed
>>>> absolutely
>>>> no difference in the amount of petafiles since I started with the
>>>> sign.
>>>>
>>>> Just today I had some guy reach out to pet Monty just as we're getting
>>>> ready
>>>>
>>>> to cross the street of all things. He explained that he had been
>>>> petting
>>>> the dog in training on the college campus earlier. As if that made it
>>> okay
>>>> or something. Torks me. But Monty got my revenge, he backed up and
>>>> gave
>>>> the death ray eyeball look. LOL Go Monty!
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Meghan" <meghan at n-republic.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:15 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dogs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > No, they don't give you a sign for the harness, but you get cards
>>>> that
>>>> you
>>>>
>>>> > can hand out.
>>>> >
>>>> > They make it clear that they discourage petting, but they advise you
>>>> on
>>>> > how to approach it if you are going to allow it, too.
>>>> >
>>>> > Hope that helps,
>>>> > Meghan
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Jennifer L Finley" <jenniferfinley at embarqmail.com>
>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 3:28 PM
>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] guide dogs
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Does the seeing eye have the please don't pet me signs? Do they
>>>> use
>>>> >> anything to let the public know to not pet the dog?
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>> >
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>>> --
>>> Jeanette Beal
>>> MS.Ed Assistive Technology
>>> Independent Consultant
>>> Boston, MA 02115
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>>> "Talent is an invention like phlogiston after the fact of fire" - Marge
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