[nagdu] Hey Got a Question for the List

[Tamara Smith-Kinney]

Julie,

Good points and rephrasing from a different viewpoint. Also, thanks for the
additional info. /smile/  It's a subject I've been thinking about, and
having some off and on discussions with a really top notch student friend of
mine about how in the heck she stays at the top of the class given that she
is also hearing impaired and has to put in even more work to get the info
from the lectures into her brain...  She's got all the good tech to help
her, granted, but she does have to work a lot harder at being a whiz kid
than the other whiz kids in her class.  If that makes sense.  Her assessment
of how she does it:  No hobbies or parties during the school year!  And she
does have to take a lighter class load than she might otherwise.  So I've
sort of become intrigued by the workflow aspects of it all.  /smile/

Now that I reread the section you quoted, I see where I did make a blanket
statement I wasn't intending to, so I apologize to all for that!

I got a little carried away with the subject and started projecting my
estimates of what I can expect now that I'm getting back on track myself as
opposed to what I could do in terms of reading ten years ago. Back then, I
could still see most of page of print, and I wasn't so much an avid reader
or even compulsive reader as a psycho reader!  I had withdrawals from
reading for months and months, where I would pick up random pieces of paper
I ran across and read them...  Then realize what I was doing -- with a sheet
of clean toilet paper.  I still catch myself picking up things to see/read
them, even after they've been described and read to me.  I did that just
Saturday and discovered that what I got out it was approximately the same
effect as if I had picked up a sharp stick and stuck it in my eye. /smile/

Now that I'm back to regular pleasure reading with braille, I feel much,
much better, and I'm re-evaluating everything in terms of my own potential
gains in returning to literacy.  I have kind of a thing about it.  /grin/

Right now, I can still claim the prize for slowest braille reader, though!
I am up to about 10 braille pages per 2 hour (ish) daily reading and it
feels like I'm really zooming along now.  /lol/  Actually, given the doggy
interference and the fact that I do my reading on the couch in front of the
TV with the book lying on a pillow on my lap, I'm not doing that badly at
picking speed and accuracy, but still have a long way to go to catch up.  I
also keep nudging my JAWS speed up to learn to listen faster, since I have
never been as quick to take in and retain auditory information as I was
visual information....  Although I transitioned overall much more easily
than I thought I would.  I still have to be careful to remember not to space
things JAWS tells me that I would automatically have remember if my eyes had
said the same thing.  If that makes sense.  I know a couple of people who
have JAWS set at something in the 90 percent range or above who can listen
at that speed while carrying on a conversation and track exactly what's
going on with JAWS and recall everything it said to them...  I would like to
work towards that, just for efficiency's sake, but I have a feeling I won't
achieve the recall even if I achieve the comprehensioin.

As you reminded me, it's a very individual thing as to which tools you use
and how well and how you use them in conjunction.  As is the motivation to
work for speed instead of just using what one needs.  I'm still mucking with
the system more out of stubbornness than any expectation it will actually
work as it's supposed to on paper, gathering documentation in the hopes I
can take my case out of the disability system into the civil arena.
However, the chances of getting what I need to get back to my regular career
path are slim, and I'm phasing in Plan B.  Where I don't need to push the
reading speed in order to keep up with the competition and handle the loads
and loads of information I used to.  So I'm more mentally prepared to just
live with reading as fast as I read in my comfort zone at the time unless I
feel like I want to torture myself by pushing for more.  

Some of the people I follow on Twitter regularly talk about the books they
read that day between work and life and hobbies and volunteer activities...
So I am chomping at the bit to catch up!  Some year...  /grin/  They
certainly demonstrate that reading in volume is possible.  I've known very
few sighted readers who read that much, in fact, and they're just super avid
readers who can't help themselves who have been doing it for years.

Anyway, thanks again for pointing out my over generalization and for
providing new information!  I'm trying to figure out how to work the concept
into a piece of writing I'm doing about braille literacy, as well, and will
be looking up research eventually and probably grilling everyone I know for
a compare/contrast of audio vs. braille...

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 11:34 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hey Got a Question for the List

Tami wrote:
*The maximum reading speed with Braille or voice
-- as far as the figures I've ever heard -- are only a fraction of that of
an average print reader.  So you're going to be spending a whole lot more
time on academic tests just to keep up with your peers!  *

Not necessarily so.  Granted my Braille reading speed is pitiful.  I do know

people who read in the 300 to 500 words per minute range.  It's not 
impossible.

There is research showing that listening words per minute is much higher 
than with print words per minute.   That was sighted people, but I'd imagine

there wouldn't be any difference with blind people.   I just checked my 
JAWS, it says the rate is 96, which is 50 on the slider thingy.  I don't 
know what that translates to in wpm.

So I wouldn't say it's an all blind people can't read as fast, but it's more

of an individual thing.  I walk fast with a cane and really fast with Monty,

but it's all relative.

Julie


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hey Got a Question for the List


> Mark,
>
> Catherine's points are well made! I would add that the dog's ability to
> remember routes makes traveling a busy, complicated environment like a
> college campus much less fatiguing.  The dog's ability to guide you around
> obstacles can end up saving an awful lot of time when you're going from 
> here
> to there in a hurry.
>
> College campuses, by my experience, anyway, seem to be rich with moving
> targets and knots of people standing in the middle of the sidewalk, quad,
> whatever, talking while others play music...  I love that atmosphere, but 
> I
> think the dog's ability to navigate around all that and avoid the other
> scurrying students at the same time would make a huge difference for 
> getting
> around campus without losing one's sanity.  I know people who are 
> perfectly
> sane who zip about campus with their canes, but I feel frazzled just
> thinking about it.  /smile/
>
> Also, let us remember that the dog does not find every crack in the 
> sidewalk
> and jam or poke you in the gut!  I find this to be a big plus!
>
> I have also noticed that people who are standing there trying to figure 
> out
> which way to go now and not making any noise or paying any attention to
> anything else get annoyed when your cane locates them for you.  Or they
> figure it out and turn suddenly into your path, and there goes the cane --
> snap!  Or they trip over it while you're putting on the brakes to keep 
> from
> running into them -- laden with a heavy backpack.  Then they can't figure
> out whether to yell at you to watch where you're going or to apologize you
> to death.  In my opinion, their yelling and storming off is much less
> time-consuming than the interminably repetitious apologizing.  I haven't 
> had
> that many such encounters, but even a near miss can result in what seems
> like days of stressful politeness.  The only person who actually sort of
> tripped over the cane was in as big a hurry as I was, so we both gasped 
> out
> the sorry are you all right have a nice day bit in unison and moved on.
> This is my preferred scenario.  /grin/
>
> I think I'm beginning to stretch a bit.  I'm trying to remember college 
> days
> when I was sans cane or dog but had a fair bit of tunnel vision and night
> blindness going on.  Come to think of it, a cane wouldn't have hurt at all
> when I was dashing across campus in the noon sun and burst into a dimly 
> lit
> building full of random groups of chatterers.  /lol/  I never thought of 
> it,
> though.  D'oh!  I never plowed into anybody, since I could navigate by 
> sound
> and manage to zip through, then I could never figure out why I got to 
> class
> feeling suddenly wrung out when I had been so peppy on the way there. 
> D'oh!
>
> One factor to consider, too, is time management.  In that, I include
> physical and brain energy management, as well.  Even if your VR system is
> one of those that will provide you with the adaptive tools you need to
> succeed -- or if your parents can provide them, either way -- you'll be
> competing with visual readers.  Like it or not, they have a big advantage
> when it comes to time spent on information acquisition, as well as in
> proofreading their papers.  The maximum reading speed with braille or 
> voice
> -- as far as the figures I've ever heard -- are only a fraction of that of
> an average print reader.  So you're going to be spending a whole lot more
> time on academic tests just to keep up with your peers!  Well, a college
> bound senior who is also blind probably does not find this to be news!
> /grin/  When I was considering school before I realized that our VR system
> is not one of the better -- or even functioning -- ones, I found that 
> whole
> prospect fairly daunting.  I'm used to whizzing through the academics
> without having to spend nearly enough time studying -- as far as everyone
> would tell me -- while still staying ahead of the game.  So I started
> preparing myself mentally for the reality that I was going to have to work
> twice to three times as hard as my peers and hope like heck it was enough.
> That also applies to my profession (before VR), which is pretty reading
> intensive.  Whenever I evaluated and updated my research on adaptive tools
> for the sort of information acquisition and management I did easily as a
> print reader, I was always focusing on building a tool kit that would 
> enable
> me to use my time best in every task or part of a task so that I could 
> stay
> competitive at something close to my then-current level.  Yikes!
>
> Back to dog vs. cane.  Those are adaptive tools, too, and which you use 
> will
> affect both the extraordinary (compared to your peers) time/energy/stress
> management you will need to achieve.  As near as I can tell, you're a 
> really
> bright guy with great language and reasoning skills.  So I'm thinking your
> peers at college will be the higher achievers with similar capabilities. 
> So
> then it's all about leveling the playing field as much as you can -- or
> that's how I see it, anyway.
>
> The dog takes more time in terms of care, need for play, grooming, etc.
> However, as one who finds the dog-related tasks enjoyable and even 
> soothing,
> I consider them a good break from whatever I'm working on or learning or
> trying to figure out how to do...  So doing something with or for the dog 
> is
> a great study break, if you will, because I can still think about what I'm
> studying or writing while relaxing and giving my mind a chance to wander 
> and
> focus on something else a bit.  Then I get back to work with a fresh
> perspective and energy, so that I can accomplish more in less time... 
> Even
> traveling with the dog, I have more free head space to use for thinking,
> reviewing and planning than I do with the cane.  With the cane I have to
> concentrate much, much harder to travel quickly enough to get where I'm
> going, so I can't think about anything else.  And I arrive more fatigued,
> plain and simple.  With Mitzi, we get there much, much more quickly,
> especially if I give her the go ahead to hit the turbo and just hustle to
> keep up.  /smile/  I may be huffing and puffing a bit when we get to our
> destination, but I feel invigorated and energized and more mentally alert
> and able to focus as I like to on whatever I came there to do.
>
> So the trade off in time spent maintaining the mobility tool isn't as 
> direct
> as it appears on the surface.  For me, at least.  Everyone is different 
> that
> way.  But it is one thing I considered when choosing to get a dog for the
> career that was supposed to happen with tools from VR...  Without those
> tools, I find I'm at a 4 to 1 time disadvantage in most tasks over my best
> estimate (based on others who do the same sorts of things) simply as a 
> blind
> person doing what I used to do sighted....  So when I have to pick up and 
> go
> somewhere to use the results of whatever project I have cussed my way
> through for a day or two in order to accomplish 2 hours worth of work, I 
> am
> really, really glad that I can harness up my zippy black dog and let her 
> be
> my fast Ferrari!  Great stress reliever for me to walk fast and just get
> places with all that fresh oxygen to the brain and stuff.  I could get 
> there
> with the cane, of course, but that would increase my travel time and even
> when I hustle with the cane, I don't get the same boost.
>
> As far as the social aspects involved in the choice...  How they balance 
> out
> for you depends on you and what you want in your activities and 
> friendships.
> I'm a snarly old wench, so I just don't have time for people who can't or
> won't deal with the dog.  I do have friends whose homes I will visit 
> without
> the poodle, just as they will visit my home which includes the hound as 
> well
> as the poodle.  A lot of my favorite fun activities are also very
> dog-friendly, and a lot of my friends take their dogs along without
> questioning it.  So Mitzi can just hop in their already doggy car and 
> nobody
> even has to discuss whether or not she should be there.  Everybody assumes
> that if you're going, the dog goes, too.  /smile/  I find they're also 
> very
> willing -- without being asked -- to offer advice and suggestions (good
> ones) and to ask questions about how to best include Mitzi in work mode 
> when
> we all leap out of the car to go somewhere to do something that does not
> normally involve dogs unless they're working.  /smile/  I've ridden a 
> couple
> of times recently with someone who is fine with the dog but not crazy 
> about
> the critters and who does not have doggy hair, smell, crumbs, toys, etc.,
> already implanted in her vehicle.  So I'm extra strict to make sure the
> Mitziness stays 4 on the floor and keeps the nose in bounds and that I've
> made extra sure she's completely clean (added goings over with washcloth)
> out of respect for the car.  I also don't take her into this friend's 
> house
> because of the cat.  Although the first time I went over there to knock on
> the door to ask a quick question without going in, I ended up standing
> outside the big living room sliding door where the cat was puffed up and
> making very sure the poodle thing knew she was not welcome on the property
> or anywhere in sight!  Mitzi was thrilled of course, because the cat was
> paying attention to her, so it must like her.  /lol/
>
> When we talk about going to symphonies and plays and concerts and that 
> sorta
> stuff, Mitzi is always part of the discussion.  We're planning for when 
> our
> tight budget loosens up a bit so haven't made final decisions on whether 
> to
> take the dog, but I love it that DD just naturally considers her as coming
> along with me.
>
> But that's not college life, so I will leave it the students with dogs to
> discuss the social aspects of having a dog at school.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Cathryn Bonnette
> Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 10:48 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hey Got a Question for the List
>
> Greetings,
>
>
>
> In response to a unique advantage of using a guide dog over a cane, I find
> that canes don't know the things that guide dogs do. For example, you 
> cannot
> tell a cane to "Find right, inside." And expect the cane to guide you to a
> doorway 20 yards ahead on the right.  There are countless other examples.
> Canes don't ever remember routes you have taken before, no matter how
> frequently you have used the route. Also, a cane cannot find you a seat in

> a
> crowded lecture hall 5 minutes after class has started.  Consider the
> prospect of poking around with a cane; even if you don't snag anyone's
> nylons in the process, it is definitely not the greatest first impression.
> Also, you still may not find an empty seat if the few left are in the 
> middle
> of rows and book bags etc on the floor will make it difficult to locate 
> them
> using the end of a stick, with or without a ball on the end.
>
> Granted, a guide dog requires food, water, relief time, exercise, and care

> a
> cane will never ask. You can be refused public transportation if fleas are
> evident and constant treatment is required.  Grooming, bathing, and 
> keeping
> your room or apartment free of dog hair are all more time consuming than
> just leaning a stick by the door.   It depends on who you are as a blind
> person who wants and needs to function independently. A guide dog requires
> training and consistency with limits, but that well trained dog will get 
> you
> to places and find things for you that a cane cannot. If the task is
> convincing parents, think about what you need in order to travel
> independently and use your needs as arguments to support your request.  If
> you can see well enough now, and you locate addresses, or elevators, or
> stairs etc. independently in strange places using a cane, then your 
> parents
> may have a point that a stick is more convenient, and you don't need a 
> dog.
> If not, why should you be limited in where you go because a stick is not
> helpful enough for you?
>
> Hoping these ideas will be helpful, and give you ideas to consider. 
> Contact
> me off list if you wish, cathrynisfinally at verizon.net.
>
>
>
> Best wishes-
>
>
>
> Cathryn (& Abby)
>
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