[nagdu] "Starting a Dialogue?
Cheryl Osborn
chapalacheryl at gmail.com
Thu May 13 15:33:30 UTC 2010
Yes, that is what I meant to say when I said that the pastor was not a
good friend
On 5/13/10, Margo and Arrow <margo.downey at verizon.net> wrote:
> Even if the pastor was making a joke, it wasn't ajoke but full of
> sereotypes.
>
>
> Im' sure everyone's heard the joke about the guy who waves the Seeing eye
> dog around so he can figure out where he's going or something. supposed to
> be ajoke but it's in poor taste and is full of negative stereotypes and
> makes blind folks out to be stupid.
>
> margo nd Arrow
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Starting a Dialogue?
>
>
>> Cheryl,
>> In my opinion, even if the pastor was making a joke, Kathryn felt
>> offended by it. Jokes founded in stereotypes are in poor taste and are not
>>
>> funny. Kathryn felt publicly humiliated by her Spiritual leader. His
>> example as such a leader not only reinforces the stereotypes many hold
>> about blindness, they also lend approval to others who hear such comments
>> to make similar distasteful jokes! I am of the opinion that public
>> humiliation deserves a public apology.
>> This can be done in a way that creates a positive outcome for Kathryn,
>> in particular, and the blind, in general. The Master Teacher taught us
>> that "Those who humble themselves shall be exalted!" Though this sounds
>> like a paradox, it is a social phenomenon that is very true. When someone
>> humbles themselves by making a sincere apology, those who hear their
>> apology see that person as a stronger, more credible individual.I once
>> mentioned recently what is called a "teachable moment". this is one of
>> them!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cheryl Osborn" <chapalacheryl at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 7:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Starting a Dialogue?
>>
>>
>>> Hi Cathryn,
>>>
>>> Are you sure that your pastor wasn't just making a joke? As for
>>> people in general, they can be very patronizing with their comments
>>> without realizing it. It's up to you to let them know what you are
>>> capable of. If blind people came with a set of instructions, we would
>>> all have to do everything the same way. <grin>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/12/10, Cathryn Bonnette <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> All:
>>>>
>>>> I am very interested in this discussion since recently my pastor
>>>> remarked
>>>> from the pulpit that congregation members had helped me with moving, and
>>>> "every box we moved she fell over." Actually, I had not fallen over
>>>> anything
>>>> the entire day, and I definitely regretted my risk in asking for
>>>> assistance
>>>> from church members when I had several other sources available. The
>>>> perception seems to be that I am amazing if I can walk down the street
>>>> without falling, and similar evaluations of my "inspiring" capabilities.
>>>>
>>>> Am
>>>> I crazy, or is this type of comment demeaning and offensive??? The folks
>>>> making comments seem to believe they are being encouraging and
>>>> appropriate.
>>>> I will confront this issue with this pastor- probably tomorrow evening
>>>> when
>>>> we generally talk by telephone. I would be most appreciative of
>>>> thoughts,
>>>> ideas, suggestions from this group since I am relatively new at dealing
>>>> with
>>>> this issue- becoming blind late in 2005.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance for any comments etc. you may be able to provide.
>>>>
>>>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Marion Gwizdala
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 11:44 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] "Starting a Dialogue?
>>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> I fully appreciate the sentiment that "starting a dialogue" is a far
>>>> better approach to this issue than protesting it. As for the Foundation
>>>> Fighting Blindness, I have written to them on a number of occasions to
>>>> share
>>>>
>>>> how their view of blindness and the information they disseminate does
>>>> more
>>>> harm than good to the blind. I also know that, in the case of FFB, some
>>>> of
>>>> their very involved blind volunteers have also shared their concerns
>>>> about
>>>> the approach they employ to no avail.
>>>> In addition to FFB, I have also expressed my concerns to other
>>>> organizations that employ the fear factor in raising funds and
>>>> "awareness"
>>>> (please notice quotes, as it is not, IMO), including some of the
>>>> Lighthouses
>>>>
>>>> for the Blind and Prevent Blindness. Their tactics, however, are very
>>>> fruitful for them, helping raise their much-needed revenue. Furthermore,
>>>> they have the support of those in the blind community who feel indebted
>>>> to
>>>> them for the help they have received, as well as those who have a
>>>> negative
>>>> view of blindness and cannot see the proverbial "forest through the
>>>> trees",
>>>> as they generally enjoy the coddling, having been taught by these
>>>> organizations that this is the best they can expect of themselves and
>>>> should
>>>>
>>>> accept the good will of the public who, after all, "are only trying to
>>>> help"! This brings up another applicable proverb: "The road to hell is
>>>> paved
>>>>
>>>> with good intentions!"
>>>> "Starting a dialogue" implies that one has not yet been attempted.
>>>> Not
>>>> only has it been attempted, the NFB has published information that I
>>>> have
>>>> shared on this list concerning the dangers of simulation exercises such
>>>> as
>>>> "Dining in the Dark". Furthermore, as I have also stated on this list,
>>>> the
>>>> few people who pay $100+ per plate to eat in the dark are not the only
>>>> ones
>>>> impacted by this inaccurate portrayal of the incapacity of the blind.
>>>> When
>>>> news releases are circulated by these "experts on blindness" (again, see
>>>> quotes, as they are not!), the media accepts the stereotypes and reports
>>>>
>>>> on
>>>> them, not only by reporting on the event, but by believing such
>>>> inaccuracies
>>>>
>>>> as our compensatory abilities and heightened senses, using such
>>>> misconceptions in future reporting!
>>>> Whether discrimination is founded in hatred or in pity, it is
>>>> founded in
>>>>
>>>> the same underlying ignorance. If we are to be seen as equals, we must
>>>> be
>>>> treated as equals. differential treatment founded in the pitifulness
>>>> simulation exercises promote do nothing to bring us to the point of
>>>> equality. Rather, it relegates us to a second-class status in which we
>>>> are
>>>> seen as needy! This results in many people seeing me, no matter how
>>>> successful I may be, and saying "There but for the grace of God go I!"
>>>> They
>>>> are really saying, "Oh, poor man! I am glad I am not like him!" They
>>>> have no
>>>>
>>>> clue how full and wonderful my life is and, most likely, imagine it to
>>>> be
>>>> very depressing! After all, "If I were blind, I would kill myself!" How
>>>> many
>>>>
>>>> times have we all heard this? I, personally, would rather be blind than
>>>> dead! JMHO!
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:13 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Carolina Eye Partners With Mira Foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> And isn't starting a dialogue a great thing and a good step toward
>>>>> dispelling misperceptions about our abilities
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Linda Gwizdak
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 12:55 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Carolina Eye Partners With Mira Foundation
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Margo,
>>>>> Look at it this way - the waitors are all real blind people. Yes, the
>>>>> sighted diners are bumbling around but they do see how efficient the
>>>>> genuine
>>>>>
>>>>> blind waitors are in serving them!
>>>>>
>>>>> It's all just a gimmick that can start a real dialog on blindness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 1:40 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Carolina Eye Partners With Mira Foundation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> but while they are in the experience, they must think we're so
>>>>>> helpless
>>>>>> because they're blundering about trying to figure out how to dine
>>>>>> while
>>>>>> blindfolded. I do not like blindness simulations at all. Makes us
>>>>>> look
>>>>>> helpless.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> margo and arrow
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 12:31 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Carolina Eye Partners With Mira Foundation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> I never went to a "Dining in the Dark" event - too expensive! But, I
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>
>>>>>>> some people who worked for it a few years ago here in San diego. I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>
>>>>>>> think it is around anymore as those people have moved on to other
>>>>>>> jobs.
>>>>>>> They never said that the "Dining in the Dark" was bad towards
>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>> After all, everyone had fun and had the knowledge that the blindfold
>>>>>>> come
>>>>>
>>>>>>> off or the lights get turned on and they go off to live their sighted
>>>>>>> lives. I see this as a gimmick to fundraise with and I have no
>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>> with it. I see no harm in it. the people know that the waitors are
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> really blind and that is something positive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as a "realistic" experinece for sighted people, I think it is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> same as doing a "White Cane Safety Day" and having people don
>>>>>>> blindfolds
>>>>>>> to walk with a cane. It makes people aware that they actually have
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> senses other than sight that really do influence their movement in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> envirnment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It probably is like a person who is newly blind and hasn't learned
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> skills yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Happy Mother's Day to all you Moms out there in NAGDU-land!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:07 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Carolina Eye Partners With Mira Foundation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am curious, as we seem to find fault in the dining in the dark
>>>>>>>>experience
>>>>>>>> has any one of us attended one of these events to find out first
>>>>>>>> hand
>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> blindness is presented at these events? I recall the response to
>>>>>>>> letters
>>>>>>>> sent to Florida highlighting the sensory appreciation of food devoid
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> sight influencing one's taste or preference over what to try and or
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> try.
>>>>>>>> It would be interesting to here from someone with first hand
>>>>>>>> experience
>>>>>>>> with attendance at one of these events.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Julie J
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 12:28 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Carolina Eye Partners With Mira Foundation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The article says it was established in 2008. I suppose that is in
>>>>>>>> reference
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to the US school, since the one in Canada has been around for a
>>>>>>>> while.
>>>>>>>> That's pretty recent and could be why no one has heard of it before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the whole concept of "Dining in the Dark" is not very
>>>>>>>> productive
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the long run. Helpful in raising funds, yes, but pretty low in any
>>>>>>>> meaningful understanding of blindness.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JMHO
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 9:06 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Carolina Eye Partners With Mira Foundation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why haven't we heard of who? Mira or the Carolina Eye thingy? Mira
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> been around a while, but I didn't know they were expanded into the
>>>>>>>>> US;
>>>>>>>>> Mira is a guide dog school in Quebec. (They teach their guide dogs
>>>>>>>>> French.)
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>>>>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 7, 2010, at 7:03 PM, Margo and Arrow wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> got problems with this--dining in the dark and why haven't we
>>>>>>>>>> heard
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> them before?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Margo and Arrow
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toni Eames"
>>>>>>>>>> <eeames at csufresno.edu>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <gdui-friends at yahoogroups.com>; <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 12:57 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Carolina Eye Partners With Mira Foundation
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Carolina Eye Partners With Mira Foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, May 5, 2010
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> <http://www.thepilot.com/news/2010/may/05/carolina-eye-partners-mira-foundat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ion/>http://www.thepilot.com/news/2010/may/05/carolina-eye-partners-mira-fou
>>>>>>>> ndation/
>>>>>>>>>>> Mira Foundation USA, a nonprofit dedicated to providing guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> children in need, announces Carolina Eye Associates as one of the
>>>>>>>>>>> organization's founding corporate partners.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mira USA is the only nonprofit providing guide dogs to visually
>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> young children in the United States. The two organizations both
>>>>>>>>>>> share
>>>>>>>>>>> the same concern and commitment to providing young children with
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> resources - and companions - that enable personal independence
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> freedom of mobility.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Carolina Eye is also the headline sponsor of Mira USA's upcoming
>>>>>>>>>>> "Dining
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in the Dark" fundraiser event taking place May 14 at the Country
>>>>>>>>>>> Club
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina in Pinehurst.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Mira USA is an organization close to all our hearts, and we
>>>>>>>>>>> admire
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> passion with which they've tackled the huge job of providing
>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>> specially trained guide dogs to young children across our
>>>>>>>>>>> country,"
>>>>>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Greg Mincey, of Carolina Eye Associates. "We are proud to be
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>>>> of Mira USA's mission for improving the lives of children in need
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> guide dog and invite other companies and organizations nationwide
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> join us in supporting their effort."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Dining in the Dark" is one of many community activities held to
>>>>>>>>>>> raise
>>>>>>>>>>> awareness and funds to support the work of Mira USA. The concept
>>>>>>>>>>> began
>>>>>>>>>>> in Germany and has spread to cities where restaurants offer a
>>>>>>>>>>> unique
>>>>>>>>>>> twist on a normal dinner out: guests gather to wine and dine in
>>>>>>>>>>> darkness. With the complete loss of vision - and the resulting
>>>>>>>>>>> heightening of the other four senses - Dining in the Dark will be
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>> extraordinary adventure.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "This is the first time such an event has been presented in North
>>>>>>>>>>> Carolina," said a spokesman. "Reserved seats are filling quickly
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> this dinner as the community has embraced both the novelty of the
>>>>>>>>>>> event
>>>>>>>>>>> and the mission of Mira USA."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "We are grateful to have the support of the distinguished team at
>>>>>>>>>>> Carolina Eye Associates," said Robert Baillie, Mira USA founder
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> chairman. "There are over 57,000 visually impaired young children
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> United States and ours is a big undertaking to begin to serve
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> largely overlooked population by providing specially trained
>>>>>>>>>>> service
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs. I've experienced how the dog can provide a bridge between
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> child and the community, diminishing the stigma often associated
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities, and with the support of the public and
>>>>>>>>>>> organizations
>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>> Carolina Eye, we will give as many children as possible this
>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous
>>>>>>>>>>> gift of independence and companionship."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MIRA Foundation USA Inc. is dedicated to enriching the lives of
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> largely overlooked population of young children living with
>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> by providing specially trained service dogs. Mira USA was
>>>>>>>>>>> established
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2008 by Robert Baillie. Having suddenly lost his sight and
>>>>>>>>>>> realizing
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> life-changing difference his guide dog Devon made for him, Bob
>>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>> to improve the experience of individuals living with blindness.
>>>>>>>>>>> These
>>>>>>>>>>> special dogs and services are given to children free of charge.
>>>>>>>>>>> Although
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mira USA will provide dogs to all who qualify, its main focus is
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> children 11 years of age and above. Mira USA believes everyone
>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>> have access to the tools and resources that enable personal
>>>>>>>>>>> independence
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and freedom of mobility, and invites you to be a part of it.
>>>>>>>>>>> Learn
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> at <http://www.mirausa.org>www.mirausa.org or (910) 944-7757.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Carolina Eye Associates is one of the largest eye-care practices
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> Southeast, with eight regional eye-care centers in North and
>>>>>>>>>>> South
>>>>>>>>>>> Carolina. Carolina Eye was established in 1977 in
>>>>>>>>>>> Pinehurst/Southern
>>>>>>>>>>> Pines, N.C., by Dr. Robert Gale Martin and Dr. George Tate Jr.
>>>>>>>>>>> Since
>>>>>>>>>>> then, patients from across the United States and more than 20
>>>>>>>>>>> foreign
>>>>>>>>>>> countries have come to Carolina Eye for eye care needs. For more
>>>>>>>>>>> information, please visit
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.carolinaeye.com>www.carolinaeye.com.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> n.net
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheryl in Mexico
>>> chapalacheryl at gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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