[nagdu] GDF's step refusal

Tue May 25 16:13:55 UTC 2010

Jenine,

Love your explanations.  And I'm glad to learn I'm not the only blind person
to get messed up by a head cold!  /lol/  I find myself trying to figure out
how my deafblind friends keep track of where they ae and what's going on to
help myself try to figure out the environment with my head all stuffed up.
But I still feel totally discombobulated at times like that.

So now I'm going to be paying attention next time I need to go down some
stairs...  That should be interesting.  /lol/  What we do works, and Mitzi
does seem to judge how oriented and balanced I am and whether I'm ready to
step down or not.  We don't go until she decides its okay.  So I guess we're
good.  /smile/

Now to convince people who are super helpful with the blind lady going up
the stair case and then expect us to race down willy nilly.  I guess in most
sighted people's minds, the steps up are scary and dangerous for blind
people because we could trip and fall up the stairs...  Don't have to worry
about that coming down.  /lol/  So they stand at the bottom and start
calling the dog while we're still getting set up now that they're out of the
way...  Along with instructions to me about holding on to the rail (it's
right there!  Just grab it!) and the like.  Really, it gets quite hectic.
Then when I get to the bottom, they criticize Mitzi for not minding and
suggest we do some work on obedience.

So then I tell them she did exactly as she should and toss of the phrase
"intelligent disobedience, or some call it selective disobedience."  Which
they don't really get, but they stop going on about how I need to teach my
dog obedience.  /smile/  And they seem to watch us more to observe how she
works, so that's all good.  /smile/  I think I will start tossing off the
words "shep refusal" there as well.  I leave out the bit where I have
specifically trained the dog to obey me and me only unless they push the
issue.  Of course, while all that is going on, I'm reinforcing Mitzi like
the wind for doing it right.  /lol/

Or maybe someday I will remember to coach the sighted ones about how we do
stairs before all that helpful intervention?  /lol/  DD kinda runs
interference, but he has a tendency to give in to the temptation to call the
dog, too.  So now when I'm out on my own and need to go down a flight of
stairs, I'm confused by the lack of sound cues from the bottom...  So Mitzi
has to wait longer for me to get all balanced and oriented.  She has to put
up with a lot, that dog.

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jenine Stanley
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 10:33 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDF's step refusal

Jewel, 

You're mostly correct in that step refusal is a bit different from standard
intelligent disobedience but it's really subtle. 

In your case, a dog would be trained, at GDf anyway, for help with balance
on stairs and would position itself so you could balance using the
additional handle on the harness as you went up and down, one step at a
time. 

I believe Dar's dog does this so she can give you a more accurate picture of
how they work it. 

The average GDF grad using step refusal may really need it during times
when, say, their orientation isn't as great as others. An example is when
you have a bad head cold and your hearing isn't what it should be to give
you the cues you need. You might normally be able to tell that the stop your
dog made was for several steps down or an entire flight of them within a
stairwell, but with your hearing obscured, you might not catch this. That's
when it really pays off. 

Yes, some dogs do it naturally, having never been taught it. They know when
you aren't paying attention or when something is too big to handle and
you're clearly not ready for it. 

At GDf we just train every dog to do the step refusal. If you keep it up
once home, you have it in case you need it. If you don't keep it up though,
the dog won't do it reliably in most cases.  Oh, the dog will generally
stop, unless you condition it not to do so by allowing or encouraging it to
step down first. That's what we do teach dogs who help with balance on
stairs. 

Hope that helps. It's one of those concepts that often doesn't even make
sense until you go through the training. Some people will love and use this
skill. Others will find it pointless, even after training. 

Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jewel S.
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 11:57 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDF's step refusal

Excuse that less message; the computer messed up on me!

What I wanted to say was...

I think step refusal is a bit different from the regular intelligent
disobedience, and please correct me if I'm wrong about this. But as I
see it, this would be good for someone who has balance issues or poor
motor skills. For example, I need to take one step at a time, knowing
the edge of each step and the depth before putting my full weight on
each step. A dog trained in step refusal would know that I am not
supposed to keep going without having my balance right. I might step
as if I think it's a flat surface, and the dog would be like "No, I
don't think so...you're going to fall, Jewel" and refuse to step until
I adjusted my balance properly. Otherwise, I am likely to knock myself
and perhaps the dog off-balance and do a drunken-man walk down the
steps or fall altogether. I've done both.

My thoughts,
Jewel

On 5/23/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> b
>
>
> On 5/20/10, Steve Johnson <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net> wrote:
>> Now, if a dog is properly trained and not with this particular skillset,
>> shouldn't they essentially be doing this anyway?  I can tell you that my
>> dog
>> and my past dogs would never take me down or up something that is just
>> simply too much.
>>
>> JMT
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Jenine STANLEY
>> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:13 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nagdu] GDF's step refusal
>>
>> since there seems to be a little confusion about our step refusal
>> procedure,
>> let me try to explain it.
>> Step refusal is a procedure used when you come to a downward flight of
>> stairs. The rationale is this.
>>
>> Usually when you are walking and your dog stops at a change in elevation,
>> say a curb or single step down, You pause, maybe investigate if necessary
>> and give the "forward" command, assuming that the next step you take
>> after
>> stepping down onto the lower surface will be in the same plain, in other
>> words, on flat ground. This may not always be the case.
>>
>> Have you ever been, say, outside or exiting a building and what you
>> thought
>> would be one step down turned into 2 or 3? It's not a fun feeling as you
>> skid down those unexpected stairs that you just told your dog you were OK
>> with and knew about.
>>
>> Step refusal is a check and balance, a command process that has been
>> taught
>> to both you and the dog to use as you wish. More on that later though.
>>
>> Step refusal as it's taught during class, and I know, some GDF grads'
>> milage
>> may vary here, begins with you and your dog stopping at the top of a
>> flight
>> of stairs. Even if you have asked your dog to "find steps down" and your
>> dog
>> has taken you to the right side hand rail if there is one, something GDf
>> dogs are taught to do, Your dog technically is not supposed to move until
>> you have investigated the space and put your left, not right, foot down
>> on
>> the next step. This, in theory anyway, shows the dog that you are not
>> just
>> blithely stepping out into space because you are in a hurry.
>>
>> During class this is taught by having the person swing the right foot
>> forward as if to step out. The dog should not move. If it does, a slight
>> verbal correction is given.
>>
>> Then the person steps down with the left foot, issues the "forward"
>> command
>> and the dog moves down the stairs as usual.
>>
>> People who have their dogs trained for balance work on stairs do this
>> differently and I won't detail that as it's different for each team.
>>
>> OK, you ask, but in the real world, do people actually use this? Truth be
>> known, many GDF grads either do not, or change the foot from left to
>> right.
>> It's there if you need it though but only if you routinely practice it
>> now
>> and then and actually use it once in a while.
>>
>> How is it different from, say, just stopping at a change in elevation?
>> Albert was correct in that once you stop, the dog is waiting on you to
>> reposition yourself then give a command. It's really another form of
>> intelligent disobedience in which the dog is waiting for you to be in a
>> safe
>> position, one foot firmly planted on the next step, before moving
>> forward.
>>
>> It's not unlike the stop the dog would make at, say, a train platform
>> edge
>> or edge of a hole. The dog wants you to investigate and be sure of your
>> footing before moving. We just added downward steps to the list of
>> obstacles
>> for such intelligent disobedience.
>>
>> Can you break your dog of this command? In a heartbeat. You can also
>> untrain
>> your dog to stop at any change in elevation by simply forcing the dog
>> enough
>> to just go up or down without even a pause.
>>
>> A well coordinated team can almost look and feel as if they don't pause,
>> but
>> I know I at least try to pause slightly at an upward change and if not
>> come
>> to a complete stop, at least do a longer pause at a downward change.
>>
>> I hope that better explains step refusal. It's often misunderstood, by
>> both
>> grads and others and is a lot more subtle than it sounds.
>>
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>

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