[nagdu] GDF's step refusal

Fri May 28 15:10:03 UTC 2010

Thank you Linda. So it sounds like you're saying your problem with an
ear infection is not being able to hear traffic, Rox and me seem to have
a problem of literally not knowing where objects are in relation to us
when we get colds. Rox, that about right? Anybody else?

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Linda Gwizdak
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 6:38 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDF's step refusal

Hi Rebecca,
As a partial, I don't have this problem but many of the totals I know do

have this orientation problem while stuffed up. Head colds tend to
affect 
the ears and nose.

If I have a bad ear infection that affects my hearing, then I have
trouble 
because I can't hear the traffic.

So, no, you're not an oddball! (grin!)

Cheers, and hope that cold goes away soon!

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDF's step refusal

> Interesting. And I'm wondering does everybody who is blind have
trouble
> with colds and orientation? I literally walk into walls when I have a
> cold, I don't do this when I don't. I wonder how specific this is to
> blindness because I've observed that sighted people seem to get a cold
> and are able to keep on truckin; wheras I can't. Anybody else have
this?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 1:33 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDF's step refusal
>
> Jewel,
>
> You're mostly correct in that step refusal is a bit different from
> standard
> intelligent disobedience but it's really subtle.
>
> In your case, a dog would be trained, at GDf anyway, for help with
> balance
> on stairs and would position itself so you could balance using the
> additional handle on the harness as you went up and down, one step at
a
> time.
>
> I believe Dar's dog does this so she can give you a more accurate
> picture of
> how they work it.
>
> The average GDF grad using step refusal may really need it during
times
> when, say, their orientation isn't as great as others. An example is
> when
> you have a bad head cold and your hearing isn't what it should be to
> give
> you the cues you need. You might normally be able to tell that the
stop
> your
> dog made was for several steps down or an entire flight of them within
a
> stairwell, but with your hearing obscured, you might not catch this.
> That's
> when it really pays off.
>
> Yes, some dogs do it naturally, having never been taught it. They know
> when
> you aren't paying attention or when something is too big to handle and
> you're clearly not ready for it.
>
> At GDf we just train every dog to do the step refusal. If you keep it
up
> once home, you have it in case you need it. If you don't keep it up
> though,
> the dog won't do it reliably in most cases.  Oh, the dog will
generally
> stop, unless you condition it not to do so by allowing or encouraging
it
> to
> step down first. That's what we do teach dogs who help with balance on
> stairs.
>
> Hope that helps. It's one of those concepts that often doesn't even
make
> sense until you go through the training. Some people will love and use
> this
> skill. Others will find it pointless, even after training.
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Jewel S.
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 11:57 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDF's step refusal
>
> Excuse that less message; the computer messed up on me!
>
> What I wanted to say was...
>
> I think step refusal is a bit different from the regular intelligent
> disobedience, and please correct me if I'm wrong about this. But as I
> see it, this would be good for someone who has balance issues or poor
> motor skills. For example, I need to take one step at a time, knowing
> the edge of each step and the depth before putting my full weight on
> each step. A dog trained in step refusal would know that I am not
> supposed to keep going without having my balance right. I might step
> as if I think it's a flat surface, and the dog would be like "No, I
> don't think so...you're going to fall, Jewel" and refuse to step until
> I adjusted my balance properly. Otherwise, I am likely to knock myself
> and perhaps the dog off-balance and do a drunken-man walk down the
> steps or fall altogether. I've done both.
>
> My thoughts,
> Jewel
>
> On 5/23/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> b
>>
>>
>> On 5/20/10, Steve Johnson <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net> wrote:
>>> Now, if a dog is properly trained and not with this particular
> skillset,
>>> shouldn't they essentially be doing this anyway?  I can tell you
that
> my
>>> dog
>>> and my past dogs would never take me down or up something that is
> just
>>> simply too much.
>>>
>>> JMT
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Jenine STANLEY
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:13 AM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nagdu] GDF's step refusal
>>>
>>> since there seems to be a little confusion about our step refusal
>>> procedure,
>>> let me try to explain it.
>>> Step refusal is a procedure used when you come to a downward flight
> of
>>> stairs. The rationale is this.
>>>
>>> Usually when you are walking and your dog stops at a change in
> elevation,
>>> say a curb or single step down, You pause, maybe investigate if
> necessary
>>> and give the "forward" command, assuming that the next step you take
>>> after
>>> stepping down onto the lower surface will be in the same plain, in
> other
>>> words, on flat ground. This may not always be the case.
>>>
>>> Have you ever been, say, outside or exiting a building and what you
>>> thought
>>> would be one step down turned into 2 or 3? It's not a fun feeling as
> you
>>> skid down those unexpected stairs that you just told your dog you
> were OK
>>> with and knew about.
>>>
>>> Step refusal is a check and balance, a command process that has been
>>> taught
>>> to both you and the dog to use as you wish. More on that later
> though.
>>>
>>> Step refusal as it's taught during class, and I know, some GDF
grads'
>>> milage
>>> may vary here, begins with you and your dog stopping at the top of a
>>> flight
>>> of stairs. Even if you have asked your dog to "find steps down" and
> your
>>> dog
>>> has taken you to the right side hand rail if there is one, something
> GDf
>>> dogs are taught to do, Your dog technically is not supposed to move
> until
>>> you have investigated the space and put your left, not right, foot
> down
>>> on
>>> the next step. This, in theory anyway, shows the dog that you are
not
>>> just
>>> blithely stepping out into space because you are in a hurry.
>>>
>>> During class this is taught by having the person swing the right
foot
>>> forward as if to step out. The dog should not move. If it does, a
> slight
>>> verbal correction is given.
>>>
>>> Then the person steps down with the left foot, issues the "forward"
>>> command
>>> and the dog moves down the stairs as usual.
>>>
>>> People who have their dogs trained for balance work on stairs do
this
>>> differently and I won't detail that as it's different for each team.
>>>
>>> OK, you ask, but in the real world, do people actually use this?
> Truth be
>>> known, many GDF grads either do not, or change the foot from left to
>>> right.
>>> It's there if you need it though but only if you routinely practice
> it
>>> now
>>> and then and actually use it once in a while.
>>>
>>> How is it different from, say, just stopping at a change in
> elevation?
>>> Albert was correct in that once you stop, the dog is waiting on you
> to
>>> reposition yourself then give a command. It's really another form of
>>> intelligent disobedience in which the dog is waiting for you to be
in
> a
>>> safe
>>> position, one foot firmly planted on the next step, before moving
>>> forward.
>>>
>>> It's not unlike the stop the dog would make at, say, a train
platform
>>> edge
>>> or edge of a hole. The dog wants you to investigate and be sure of
> your
>>> footing before moving. We just added downward steps to the list of
>>> obstacles
>>> for such intelligent disobedience.
>>>
>>> Can you break your dog of this command? In a heartbeat. You can also
>>> untrain
>>> your dog to stop at any change in elevation by simply forcing the
dog
>>> enough
>>> to just go up or down without even a pause.
>>>
>>> A well coordinated team can almost look and feel as if they don't
> pause,
>>> but
>>> I know I at least try to pause slightly at an upward change and if
> not
>>> come
>>> to a complete stop, at least do a longer pause at a downward change.
>>>
>>> I hope that better explains step refusal. It's often misunderstood,
> by
>>> both
>>> grads and others and is a lot more subtle than it sounds.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/stevencjohnson%40
> cent
> urytel.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40g
> mail
> .com
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40wowway
> .com
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2890 - Release Date:
05/23/10
> 14:26:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
> 40tasc.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40c
ox.net 

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
40tasc.com