[nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs

Sat Nov 27 18:44:34 UTC 2010

I got my dog from TSE.

On 11/27/10, Tamara Smith-Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Dan,
>
> Yeah.  I don't know that I would give a program dog the freedom I give
> Mitzi.  We started early enough that we were able to work up to it, and her
> breed is good for running loose, since they naturally run out and then run
> back.
>
> Poor Daisy never had a chance to just be free in a yard until after Mitzi
> and I moved in, and I ended up spending a lot of time and attention on
> monitoring her every move when we were out there at first because she just
> would go nuts.  Well, she was still psycho hound back then, so managing her
> was extra tricky.  Prohibiting unwanted behaviors and redirecting her
> without setting off her anxiety and fear aggression mean using tiny, tiny
> steps, and it took time to really reach her.  It was only about a year ago
> that she had her lightbulb moment and clicked on the operant conditioning.
> Whew!  She's made a lot of progress since, but she's still fairly
> high-maintenance.
>
> Well, you wouldn't have her problems with a guide dog, so I'm straying.
> Just saying that I agree with you that you can't let a dog run if it hasn't
> been trained to come back and to be safe while it's running.
>
> I do like hearing about the people who take on the task to achieve that
> training themselves.  /smile/  Doing off leash training, especially once you
> can let the dog have some distance, is very challenging to do nonvisually.
> Also, very nerve-wracking, since it's hard not to imagine that your dog is
> doing something you're both going to regret.  I really struggled with that
> at first.  Also, I used a lot of antacids.  /smile/
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Dan Weiner
> Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 4:46 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs
>
> Just a note:
> I like the idea of dogs running in open spaces.
> Until either the schools put a good recall on the dogs or we achieve it
> ourselves we're asking for problems.
>
>
> Cordially,
>
> Dan W.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 8:30 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs
>
> Dan and Lora,
>
> Sometimes it's the orthodoxy that is ill-advised.  /evil grin/  I'm a big
> proponent of freedom to run play in wide open spaces.  Apparently, most if
> not all U.S. guide dog programs are against that sort of thing.  At least
> they used to be; I hear they're getting less uptight about it lately.
>
> The key is to find a place where your dog will be as safe as possible to run
> and play and even socialize with other dogs.  Especially at first, because
> reliable recall and boundaries take time to learn.  Also, it seems that
> reliability is a matter of maturity, so you need to maintain protections for
> a wild and crazy dog until at least the age of 5.  /smile/  Well, the level
> of total reliability I'm referring to there means that the dog is
> self-disciplined and obedient enough to walk with its owner off-leash around
> a city neighborhood without getting into trouble or endangering itself or
> others.  Used to be, Portlanders would take their well-trained,
> well-mannered dogs all over the place that way -- farmer's markets, street
> fairs, community picnics, you name it.  Then people started taking their
> untrained, ill-mannered scurvy curs to those venues, so now those of us who
> have taken the time to train our dogs have to keep them on leash even though
> the law still says on leash or under control.  Oh, well!  Mine is just now
> mature and reliable enough for me to consider wandering around a farmer's
> market or such with her off leash, and I would be using her as a guide
> anyway. Still!  I would have loved an opportunity to see all that patience
> and perserverance come into play, just a time or two.  I'm silly that way, I
> guess.
>
> So the 5-year maturity limit is only if you really want to have a dog that
> is totally reliable off-leash in unfenced areas.  I do, so I've been working
> with Mitzi poodle on that since January of '07...  While I still limit
> potential risks when we're doing our thing with no physical connection
> between us, she's pretty awesome and I don't worry much these days.  Also,
> she truly does jingle guide and squeak guide with her ball, so it's great
> for just walking around in the great outdoors with her.  /smile/
>
> I put bells on her collar so I know where she is, and I always reinforce
> recall and minding boundaries.  Which I can now set on the fly, so that's
> cool.  I have no need to take her on a sidewalk near traffic, and would not
> choose to do so.  However, it is nice to know that if for whatever strange
> reason I have a need for her to be off-leash, she would be fine.  I did
> actually manage to lose my leash at the park a couple of years back and was
> astonished at how well she did coming home without it.  It was a pretty safe
> walk, except for a couple of passages, but she was awfully darn good,
> especially considering her age and general level of overall snottiness.
> Love her, but she is Mitzi poodle, after all.  /grin/
>
> Incorporating interactive play into your off-leash time also does wonders.
> You can do a lot of reinforcing your training without actually doing any
> training.  And you can both get lots of exercise while having fun together.
> You can praise a behavior your dog makes in the course of play ("Good bring
> it!), then reward the dog by throwing (or kicking) the ball,which is the
> reward.  It's a fun way to have a dog that listens and responds well during
> off leash romps.
>
> With my ulta high-energy wild and crazy curly girl, I have done my best to
> follow a couple of hard and fast rules for myself:
>
> 	1.  Always reward recall.  Always!
> 	2.  Never give a command you know your dog will not obey.
>
> Oh, and when it comes to teaching your dog to pay attention to you when it
> counts...  Smelly treats!  If they're much too expensive and you can't stand
> yourself when you have a pocket full of them, then you're probably on the
> right track.  /lol/  Early on, especially, using rank bribery to start
> conditioning obedience is definitely the way to go.  Dogs are
> scent-oriented, so a smelly treat will get the dog's attention and bring it
> to you, even when said dog was planning to run by you demonstrating that it
> has no intention of coming to you just because you called it.  I speak from
> experience there.  /grin/  It's a way to condition the dog to come whether
> it wants to be conditioned or not.  /lol/  I could still see Mitzi well
> enough on sunny days to catch her expression when that start kicking in.
> She was so mad!  But she couldn't help herself because, well, you know...
> Smelly treats are smelly treats.  Yum!
>
> Don't know if any of that is helpful in your situation.  It was fun to
> suddenly find myself thinking back through all the fun (and sometimes scary)
> times with my curly girl, seeing those sunny days in the park by my old
> apartment with far more clarity than I probably really did....
>
> Now, I need to remember how to walk around the house I live in on this dank
> and dreary winter's night... /lol/
>
> Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Dan Weiner
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 10:39 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs
>
> Well, just my opinion.
> First of all, with outside do you mean a fenced-in area or an open space
> with no borders?
> If it's fenced-in, then really no harm done and let him run around and get
> rid of pent up energy.
> If it's totally open, I would say that letting her off lead is ill-advised.
> Perhaps you could buy a flexi-lead to give your dog more space to roam
> without getting away.
> I have a fifteen foot nylon leash I bought about 15 years ago, one foot per
> year--lol.
> The problem is that your dog can get tangled up in it.
> So, fenced-in area, all right, open area, not so hot--smile.
> Indoors, well, and this is just a general comment, I find that people are
> really uptight about everything their dogs do. How can your dog learn what's
> expected without freedom in the house. Besides, keeping him/her on leash if
> it's your home will make you a nervous wreck and start feeling like a
> burden.
> Even the best guide dogs I've seen will eventually do something silly in the
> house, so don't sweat the little stuff.
>
> Perhaps unorthodox but my two cent worth anyway.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Cindy Ray
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 1:33 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs
>
> Um, I wouldn't let him outside off leash myself. As for inside, are you
> doing obedience? Often the dogs really need that for a while before you can
> get what you are looking for. I do obedience on leash sometimes; then as a
> final exercise I do it off leash to see if he'll do it.
>
> CL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lora" <blindhistory at gmail.com>
> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 12:27 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Freedom for guide dogs
>
>
> After about six months I have been trying to give my guide dog freedom
> outside and inside. He still gets into trouble mostly outside. He
> won't listen off leash. Any suggestions?
> --
> Lora
>
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-- 
Lora