[nagdu] NFB and Airlines

Sun Oct 31 23:32:27 UTC 2010

Dear Gary,
I am so glad you had a good trip! Your self-advocacy is really
important, and it sounds like you did a great job.

Give Bogart an extra hug from me  for a job well done!

On 10/31/10, GARY STEEVES <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone:
>
> Just thought I'd share my canadian experience. I flew last weekend from
> Vancouver to Ottawa which is a 5 hour direct flight. In Canada the airlines
> must provide a seat for the dog as long as they are given the appropriate
> notice. I did everything as I was supposed to. the only thing I didn't do
> according to their policy was to arrive an extra hour early (this means 2
> ours) before my flight was to leave. I felt that this was  unreasonable when
> I'm trying to minimize how long Bogart has to go without relieving himself.
> I forgot to ask when I was checking in if they had kept the seat aside as
> they were supposed to. So I got them to send an assistant to get me to the
> gate. Going through security went really well. One security guy was going to
> ask me to take Bogart's harness off but before I could explain that this
> wasn't necessary (polite way of saying I don't have to) one of  his
> workmates said the right thing which was we don't have to do that. I got
> Bogart to sit right in front of the security  scanner and told him to stay.
> I walked through, with no beeps which makes things easier, and then asked
> bogart to come. All I had to do was show them what was in the poutch on his
> harness (halty, treats and pickup bags) and they were happy. When I got to
> the plane they were just about to start preboarding  so on we went. I was
> wondering how things were going to work out and soon saw when two people
> identified themselves of holding the two seats in my row of 3. I called the
> flight attendant and calmly explained the situation. Her question was did I
> purchase a seat for the dog to which I said no and again explained what the
> canadian transportation policy states. She went off and looked through a
> bunch of binders until they foud the answer they were looking for. I was
> hoping  one of my row mates would gget bumped to first class. Anyway, they
> did find a seat for the middle guy of  the row so that all worked out. On
> the way back I asked when I was checking in to be sure that everything was
> booked correctly which it was.
>
> I also had a bit of a hassle at the hotel. It was 1am and I was tired. the
> over night desk clerk was wanting to bill me $35 for a pet. I explained that
> he was a guide dog and not a pet and I could guarantee that there was no pet
> charge.  I had to say this twice but in the end there was no charge on my
> account. I did call the manager and tell him about what happened and maybe
> he needs to use this as an opportunity to re-educate his staff regarding
> service dogs.
>
> Anyway, I have to thank the list since it  is from reading everyone's
> stories that I was sure I knew the rules and simply calmly explained them
> without being confrontational with good results.
>
> Thank you everyone for helping me understand that the most important thing I
> can do is know the rules/laws and be able to confidently  explain them to
> whomever. Just being calm, clear and confident will be a big stabalizer in
> keeping the situation under control.
>
> By the way bogart did really good on this trip. he was a bit nervous on the
> flight out but better on the gflight back. He did a great job of guiding me
> around the hotel. stayed calm and quiet during my boring meeting and just
> would lie down when my conversations became to boring for him. He was the
> star of the show though. :) My girlfriend  had google mapped the area so I
> knew there was a church a block away with a nice grassy park. It was
> challenging to find time to get him out there and do everything I needed to
> do but we did accomplish it. All and all it was good to see he could handle
> the conference setting. If I didn't need to bring him next time then I
> probably wouldn't but I like to know he does okay with these sorts of
> changes.
>
> Gary
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> Date: Saturday, October 30, 2010 11:40 am
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NFB and Airlines
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>
>> Tami,
>>
>> The long struggle we have had with the airlines has been very
>> frustrating.  As has been mentioned, we've had significant
>> problems over the past 30 or more
>> years.  I was one who was arrested for not moving from an
>> exit row back in the 80's, and while I feel I was right, I am
>> frustrated that my actions did not lead
>> to more changes.  However, the NFB was very active in
>> assisting a number of us in the 1980's and we came very close to
>> getting some real protection
>> passed through Congress.  Unfortunately, terrorism and the
>> experiences in most recent years has made it more difficult to
>> take a legal approach with the
>> airlines.  However, there are some protections in law that
>> can still help us.  Often, the problems we encounter with
>> airlines are not truly the result of airline
>> policies but are rather poor implementations of policy by
>> specific staff.  While it is not likely, in my opinion,
>> that we can do much in terms of getting new laws
>> passed in the current climate, and while individuals may have
>> less of a chance of success than we did back in the 1980's by
>> refusing to obey policies that
>> were not supported by law, resisting policies and complaining
>> through various complaint mechanisms can help.  While
>> airlines tend to have a good deal of
>> power now because of laws related to anti-terrorism, they also
>> have a fairly poor image with their customers and are sometimes
>> responsive to complaints.
>>
>> While you are right that there is no single way to bring about
>> change now, resisting or complaining about policies that you
>> feel are not fair can help.  It also
>> helps to be knowledgeable about the law.  While the ADA may
>> have some impact, there are specific laws that govern airline
>> travel.  Never mind the fact
>> that we shouldn't have to deal with any of this, the fact is
>> that we do, fair or not.  While the kinds of changes we may
>> once have hoped for are not likely to
>> happen quickly, we do not have to sit back and take whatever is
>> thrown at us, either.  We are also hurt by the fact that
>> there are blind people out there
>> who feel if they are not able to do a given thing then nobody
>> can.  That is also an unfortunate fact of life,  but
>> that isn't anything new.  Still, it makes sense
>> for us to evaluate our own abilities honestly as well.  The
>> idea here is not that one size fits all, it is that each of us
>> has different abilities and challenges and
>> may need different levels of assistance.  This can actually
>> make life confusing for airline personnel, but we need to keep
>> working with them and with each
>> other.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:41:23 -0700, Tamara Smith-Kinney wrote:
>>
>> >Well...  I do see where you're coming from.  However,
>> it is astonishing how
>> >much attitudes change when the consequences of the actions
>> based on the bad
>> >attitudes are real and immediate and have direct connection to
>> the bad
>> >behavior...  Operant conditing 101, really.  Only
>> with humans, you have to
>> >sometimes apply harsh and punitive negative reinforcement just
>> to get their
>> >attention.
>>
>> >In other words, so long as we let the airlines and any other
>> entity guilty
>> >of gross mistreatment of the disabled or any other minority --
>> and thus
>> >perceived as powerless group -- get away with it, they will
>> continue with
>> >their bad behavior because they will not only get away with it
>> but be
>> >rewarded by it.
>>
>> >What can we as individuals do?  Not a g*d* freakin'
>> thing.  Because we as
>> >individuals can almost (but not quite) afford the attorney
>> fees.  Or the
>> >time.  Or the energy.  Or the real financial burden
>> from both of those.
>>
>> >So...  I'm with Cathryn.  So long as we and the NFB
>> let these people -- and
>> >others -- get away with their bad behavior, they will continue
>> to pratice
>> >it.
>>
>> >If I had a practical solution, I would offer it.  More
>> money and more
>> >personal advocacy and attorneys ready to leap to deal with individual
>> >incidents would be great...  It's coming up with that kind
>> of money and that
>> >kind of manpower that stumps me.  I do what I can, and
>> that currently ain't
>> >much.  Maybe someday, for me, but for now I just have to
>> deal with what I
>> >can (me, then the Oregon Commission for Blind) and spout off
>> opinions.>/smile/
>>
>> >Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> >Of Cindy Ray
>> >Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 5:16 PM
>> >To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> >Subject: Re: [nagdu] NFB and Airlines
>>
>> >Cathryn, I think it is pretty unfair to say that the airlines
>> will do
>> >whatever the NFB and others will let them get away with. As
>> Peter has
>> >stated, this sort of thing has been going on for at least 30
>> years. People
>> >have been arrested for standing up for their rights on planes.
>> Others have
>> >managed to garner bad will of other passengers. NFB has had
>> cases; we once
>> >demonstrated at the FAA during a convention. Just this week a
>> suit has been
>> >filed against United concerning the inaccessibility of the
>> kiosks (sp), and
>> >there are plenty of instances where members have been able to
>> get airlines
>> >to admit to the fact there are really no rules. I think this is
>> something>that will continue as long as the attitudes exist that
>> are. You can pass
>> >laws but attitudes take time, and more time than we mostly have
>> patience>with, but I think it some unfair to say what you have
>> said here unless I am
>> >truly missing something.
>>
>> >CL
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com