[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: anticipating

Wed Sep 1 14:00:17 UTC 2010

Tami, 
Your opening paragraph says it all.You were talking to an intelligent
person who doesn't use a dog. The cane and the dog are fundamentally
different. That's why you got the response you did. 
Your friend views the dog as a cane that poops. Of course she'd give you
the answer she did. 
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:11 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] anticipating

Julie,

I am all for anticipation and intiative in my guide.  And I take pretty
much
your approach in refining and encouraging it to teach my poodle thing to
use
her strong will and initiative in good decision making.  And, yes, I've
been
informed that is all wrong, that she is supposed to wait for me to tell
her
what to do when and to be completely submissive to my will.

Er...  I was a bit startled the first time I heard that one, because it
was
after a meeting with a guide who is not only a total but who has a
brain...
Non guide dog user, though.  I stood up when we ended the meeting, so
did my
dog (only about a year and far from fully trained then), so I took the
handle of our shiny new On-the-Go Sport Harness and followed her to the
door, reaching out to open it...  That was when I got the news that I
was
training my dog wrong because I was supposed to tell her what to do
first....Oh.  At least that wasn't delivered put-down style, and the guy
is
a teacher of another subject, so it wasn't totally offensive or
anything.  I
was new enough to the guide dog thing -- and my dog was just starting to
guide in harness on a limited basis and to be trusted (-ish) to lie
quietly
during such meetings.  In fact, I was ridiculously proud of her for
having
done so, and for having gotten up without a fuss and taken me to the
door
without my having to interrupt my conversation to argue with her about
what
to do...

So I did think about it over the next few days and decided that she had
done
what I was training her to do and had actually displayed behavior that
was a
bit more advanced than I expected at that point.  Because I don't want
to
have to put a whole lot of energy and time and distraction into telling
my
dog what to do when a simple change of body language or a hand gesutre
will
do.  Also, for Pete's sake, part of the benefit of guide dog dog over
cane
is that the guide dog can do the work of processing the environment and
knowing what's what and where it is, so that I don't have to stop and
listen
and interrupt the person I'm talking to so that I can hear better and
remember where the door is so that I can move my mobility tool in the
right
direction ...  I can do that, and I'm not bashing the cane by any means!
It's just that the dog has a couple of key features the cane does not:
a)
eyes that see stuff;  and b) a brain!  Since I lack the former, why
should I
strain the latter when she can just figure it out and do what I want her
do
whether someone else picks up on my wishes or not?

And of course, there are those times I genuinely believe I know what's
going
on and that my dog should isten to me and do what I say...  Which are
times
I inevitably discover the reasons guide dogs are trained to practice
intelligent disobeidence! /grin/  I have come to the conclusion that any
guide of mine is going to need lots and lots of that or I'll get us both
into more trouble than we can handle thinking I know what's what and
where
things are.  /grin/

Anyway, interesting question, and I'll be really interested to hear from
those with proram dogs, be it traditionally trained and with lots of
experience between both team members, or new handlers learning the ropes
with some of the new training methods that schools are starting to use
...

Meanwhile, we're getting ready to head out, so we'll see if I have
enough
handling experience to follow my dog around without requiring her to
practice intelligent disobedience.  /grin/  Then again, we're actually
having August weather here, so there's always the possibility of a good
knee
licking.  /lol/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 12:14 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] anticipating

Heya all,

I will have had Monty two years tomorrow. We have worked together as a
team
for about 10 months of that.  I was reflecting back on all the progress
we
have made and how smoothly we are working together, at least most days.
*smile*

Anyway this morning on the way to work I was pondering the issue of
guides
that anticipate turns.  My understanding is that most of the programs
discourage this.  I'm talking about a dog who makes a turn on a regular
route without direct direction from the handler to do so.  

Monty does this all the time.  I have actually cultivated the skill
because
I appreciate it.  Of course if I feel him begin a turn and I want to go
another way I simply stop, praise him and give the new instructions.
Also
if we pass a place where we have turned in the past, but it's not a
really
regular place, he'll sort of do a half turn with a pause and look back
to
see if that's what I want.  I absolutely love this and can't imagine
working
it differently.

My route to work is basically straight west with only a deviation of one
block north.  I vary the route as much as is possible.  It really makes
no
difference where I choose to turn north, he always figures out where to
go
at the next corner.  

I'd love to hear how all of you balance the initiative of the dog,
anticipating turns, indicating possible turns and the like.

Julie
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tamara.8024%40com
cast
.net

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
40ngc.com