[nagdu] should guides be given a second ownerifitdoesn'tworkoutwith the first owner?

Sarah Clark goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net
Fri Apr 15 19:12:53 UTC 2011


Having said that, expecting that they'd tell us about problems and whether 
they *should* tell us about problems are 2 different things.  They should, 
but I know most don't for either a reissue or new issue.
For example, If a dog empties on route, and if taking steps such as giving 
an opportunity to relieve before walking doesn't work to allieviate the 
problem, I would have a hard time accepting that behavior as well.  It would 
not be something that most people should have to deal with, and quite 
honestly, I think some schools would not even place a dog with that problem. 
I think GDB does not place dogs who repeatedly have accidents in harness.

Sarah & Miguel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sarah Clark" <goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second 
ownerifitdoesn'tworkoutwith the first owner?


> Hi Tracy,
> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we receive who 
> are not reissues.  They normally don't tell us about those things when we 
> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to for a reissue 
> just because it was a reissue.
>
> Sarah & Miguel
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second 
> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>
>
>> Hi Sarah.
>> I don't think I buy your argument.  There could be plenty of undesirable
>> behaviors I might never think to mention.  For example, Ben empties on
>> route.  The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull over first.  To
>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not occur to me 
>> during
>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think to mention to
>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming untied every 5
>> minutes.
>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any undesirable 
>> behavior
>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate steps to correct
>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all.  You can bet, next
>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who empties on route.
>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead. <grimace.>
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>> Hi Peggy,
>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to know why the
>>> match
>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact you.  The only
>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is if the dog 
>>> has
>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need prescription 
>>> dog
>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that is going to be 
>>> a
>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual.  But then again, 
>>> I'd
>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless if its a 
>>> reissue
>>> or not.
>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants, and the 
>>> handler
>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any problems. If the
>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like something 
>>> such
>>> as
>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that shouldn't 
>>> matter
>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically doesn't want to
>>> deal
>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to request a dog that
>>> isn't
>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food distraction
>>> problem
>>> at all.
>>>
>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>> with the first owner?
>>>
>>>
>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't work, I'd be
>>>> curious
>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that information.  My
>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one of the best 
>>>> dogs
>>>> I
>>>> have ever had.  As I said I'll always wonder why her previous match
>>>> didn't
>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to the school,
>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do.  She lived in one of 
>>>> the
>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while.  It was
>>>> determined
>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me and it's 
>>>> turned
>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify them all in
>>>> the
>>>> same category.  True that an occasional dog that is a reissue may have
>>>> been
>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to handle for the
>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop the dog from
>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with, etc, but many of
>>>> them
>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all.  Maybe the dog
>>>> just
>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and realized this and
>>>> that
>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my husband with a
>>>> guide
>>>> many years ago).  Maybe it just wasn't a good match.  Or maybe the
>>>> person
>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't handle the 
>>>> extreme
>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the school thinks the
>>>> dog
>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for.  Its also true that
>>>> they
>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more seasoned than 
>>>> the
>>>> younger dogs.  Though it is clear that some applicants don't want them
>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during the interview if
>>>> I'd
>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>
>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued.  This dog was with 
>>>>>a
>>>>>guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog was taken from
>>>>>him and my friend got this same dog.  Boy, what stories this dog could
>>>>>have told if he could talk!  It was a very nice dog and she worked well
>>>>>for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog, I keep 
>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second chance. Our
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time out, or re
>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question.  That's one of those program
>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and my first
>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience with dogs who
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable view of the
>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done well with
>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people...  /smile/  Still, I get it 
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained, and it does seem
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> for the most part.  There will certainly be times when it doesn't,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting...  As a still pretty new and
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an owner-trainer then
>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes and ways of
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as closely as I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> those of the long-timers.  I can watch my peers in that regard to
>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not just in skill
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those with much more
>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but on a
>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or just coming past
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> team building phase:  We over-react.  To everything.  /lol/  The
>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> bad, the mundane...  It is all new and exciting and frightening and
>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief.  We popped out to dinner 
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one little thing
>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table...  Outwardly, I remained
>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay.  Inwardly, what did I do?
>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>> OMG!  How can this be?  What can it mean?  Oh, no, this is so
>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was worth all the
>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>> got over it.  /smile/  More and more, it's all old hat, but
>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue dog...  I think
>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first year or so,
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely crazy about your
>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in your own mind
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience dhandler.  The 
>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but it's not really
>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs.  So you really have to
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try to figure out
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> counteract and...  Well, on and on.  It just takes awhile for all of
>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>> become havit and natural.  I've only been there for a short while --
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that sure is nice!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming through the tream
>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one -- which is where it
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.  /smile/  I'm
>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move into the taking
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it doesn't
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me.  I don't think that guides
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of bad habits and
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> are  really hard to get rid of.  I love my  dog very muchand harvard
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot of her bad
>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>> we still have some work to do.  What do you guys think? am I over
>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
>>>>
>>>>
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