[nagdu] follow was Grave problems with Pilot Dogs program

Sun Apr 17 18:45:05 UTC 2011

Lisa,

Isn't Bernie still pretty young?  I noticed with Mitzi that doing a follow,
especially through complicated environments, was trickier for her than I had
first imagined it would be.  She would seem confused or even grumpy at
times, and I was new enough to trying to figure out how to play my role to
really grasp what she was struggling with and help her figure it out.

So I finally figured out that she was attempting to follow the person in
terms of direction, while still guiding me and picking safe routes, while I
was making things more difficult for her by being an annoying twit who
couldn't mind my dog if she bit me.  /lol/  Once I caught on and thought
about, I realized that she was absolutely right.  The shopping assistant
knows how to get from the bananas to the milk by the most efficient route,
even if it involves a detour past the paper towels...  What the shopping
assistant does know,  beyond applying intelligence and intuition, is how to
lead a guide dog team through that route -- or even cane user -- through
that route since we travel it differently than a sighted shopper would.
Mitzi's approach was actually the most sensible and sound one!  I hate it
when I'm reminded that my dog is that much smarter than I am, but it's a
good thing under the circumstance.  /lol/

Anyway, just as I would follow my cane while following our shopping
assistant, I started following my dog while she followed the shopping
assistant.  The result was not the step by step observance of the exact
route that I had originally envisioned, but it did work better.  She
observes the path and direction and location of the human she is following,
then chooses the best way for us to arrive at the same destination.  For
instance, if the assistant breezes through a narrow aisle, Mitzi will detour
to reach him/her by detouring to another aisle to get to where he/she is
taking us.

Maybe that's what Bernie was trying to do?  Or is he still trying to figure
it out on the fly?  It may not be the same for all guides, but I think the
dogs do not find follow as easy as we think it is for them.  /smile/

Let me know how future adventures go!  Since I'm not in a position to jaunt
around San Diego myself (love that city!), it gives me a bit of a thrill to
know that people I know are down there doing just that!

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Lisa Irving
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 9:40 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] follow was Grave problems with Pilot Dogs program

TOday is a good example of when it would have been beneficial to know how to

use a follow command. Bernie and I kind of followed Landon and his handler 
through very busy areas. I was frustrated and I think Bernie was just trying

to do his best and seemed confused.

Lisa and Bernie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] follow was Grave problems with Pilot Dogs program

> Hi Julie.
> I'm not sure either, but I think having a conversation with the person I'm
> trying to follow helps.  I think it helps keep Ben focussed on the person,
> and helps me know if he's getting other ideas and heading elsewhere.
> Tracy
>
>> To all of you who have taught the follow command, can you share tips on
>> how
>> you did it?
>>
>> I taught Belle, but I don't really remember completely how I did it.  She
>> picked it up very easily and was one of those dogs who would follow to 
>> the
>> exclusion of all else.
>>
>> I've been working on the concept with Monty off and on for a while now,
>> but
>> he isn't very good at following.  He wants to be out front and in the
>> lead.
>> that's fine most of the time, but sometimes I do need him to follow, like
>> yesterday when we were following someone in a parking lot to a particular
>> car.
>>
>> Thoughts? Ideas?
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sheila Leigland" <sleigland at bresnan.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 7:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Grave problems with Pilot Dogs program
>>
>>
>>> When I got my first dog I taught him to follow on my own. They don't
>>> want
>>> the dogs to just follow people so they don't risk teaching it.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Lyn Gwizdak <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:45 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Grave problems with Pilot Dogs program
>>>
>>> Carin,
>>> I've known several people who got dogs at Pilot.  They went during the
>>> 80s
>>> and 90s and they had traffic training and their dogs worked fine as far
>>> as
>>> I
>>> could see.  What I did hear is that they don't teach the "Follow"
>>> command.
>>> I have since heard that other schools aren't teaching the "Follow"
>>> command
>>> either.
>>>
>>> To me, the "Follow" command is a very good one that I use all the time
>>> when
>>> I'm in a store or just out and about with other guide dog users and I
>>> don't
>>> know the route - usually inside a mall or store.  Out on the street, I
>>> use
>>> the regular guide commands.
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Alexander" <kalex710 at gmail.com>
>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:42 PM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Grave problems with Pilot Dogs program
>>>
>>>
>>>>I spoke with Alec a member of Nagdu and a guide dog handler. I found out
>>>> that Pilot Dogs train their dogs for only three months. It seems that
>>>> they
>>>> are not thoroughly trained with traffic, etc. I am just in the
>>>> beginning
>>>> state of choosing an organization.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I could used input from anyone on this list regarding Pilot Dogs both
>>>> positive and negative.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is a grave concern to me to be given a dog who could put both of us
>>>> in
>>>> harms way. How can a service dog organization not be called out for
>>>> unsafe
>>>> dogs?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The newbie,
>>>>
>>>> Carin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Karen Alexander
>>>>
>>>> home:    330 864 8351
>>>>
>>>> mobile:  330 715 4690
>>>>
>>>> 710 White Pond Dr #705
>>>>
>>>> Akron, Ohio 44320
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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