[nagdu] Comparison of miniature horses and dogs as guides, was: Re: Dogs, NFB and cane travel

Sun Aug 14 19:48:22 UTC 2011

Hi, Peggy,

Panda has her own little house right next to my deck, where she stays at 
night and when she's not accompanying me.  She and other miniature horse 
guides are house trained.  Some have also been trained to relieve themselves 
using the relief harness, for the convenience of the handler in picking up, 
and I suppose, it would also be handy in an emergency where there was not 
time or opportunity to get to a relief area.

Ann

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Comparison of miniature horses and dogs as guides,was: 
Re: Dogs, NFB and cane travel

> Thanks for sharing, does she sleep in the house and stuff or does she have 
> to live outside??  Does she have to wear a diaper or are guide horses 
> potty trained.  Sorry if these seem like stupid questions, about four 
> years ago was really considering a horse but got my Nyla instead.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Ann Edie
> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 1:00 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Comparison of miniature horses and dogs as guides,was: 
> Re: Dogs, NFB and cane travel
>
> Hi, Larry,
>
> Comparing is always a risky business, as it is difficult to extrapolate 
> from
> individuals to species.  But I will give you a few comparisons from my own
> experience:
>
> In guiding ability, focus, enthusiasm for the job, accuracy,
> problem-solving, memory for routes, and ability to look ahead and plan a 
> way
> around obstacles and tricky areas, I would say that my miniature horse 
> guide
> is right up there with the best of guide dogs.
>
> I have found her pace to be more even than that of the dogs I have worked
> with, that is, she doesn't speed up in unfamiliar places or when first
> starting out, and slow down on the way home or on regular routes.
>
> She doesn't seem to get bored with regular routes.  But she is always up 
> for
> exploring new places.  And she doesn't argue if I want to deviate from a
> habitual route the way my dog guides often did.  Panda just seems to say,
> "Oh, you want to go that way today.  Okay, let's go!"  Actually, she seems
> to be able to read my mind and turn in the direction I want to go, without
> my even giving an overt signal, even if it is a change from the way we 
> have
> gone a hundred times.  I think she is picking up on subtle changes in my
> body positioning.  Or maybe she is actually reading the pictures in my 
> mind.
>
> No, she doesn't chase squirrels, or cats, or dogs.  She will occasionally
> snatch a bite of grass as we're walking along, but she has never bolted 
> away
> from me into traffic to chase after grass, or anything else, as some of my
> dogs did after other animals.
>
> I think, in gemeral, horses are better at paying attention to and judging
> overhead obstacles than dogs are.
>
> And it is my experience that Panda is better at being careful on ice and
> other slippery or uneven footing than are dogs in general.
>
> I also think that since horses naturally travel in groups of moving
> individuals, that they naturally understand and enjoy the process of 
> moving
> among other moving beings and objects, and easily calculate tragectories 
> of
> many objects simultaneously.
>
> You are right in saying that horses don't greet people by sniffing 
> crotches.
> Horses have a greeting custom which seems to me to be more polite in a 
> human
> context, that is, horses put their little noses close to their person's
> face, as if to sniff the breath, perhaps to find out what the person has
> been eating lately.  And horses don't lick people's faces either, although 
> I
> do know some who do lick people's hands.
>
> One of the biggest differences between horses and dogs as guides is that
> horses have a much longer life span, and can, therefore, work for much
> longer than dogs can.  Panda is now ten and a half years old, yet she is
> still a very young horse, just coming into her prime.  If she were a dog, 
> I
> would certainly have to be thinking of her approaching retirement by this
> point.  As it is, she is still learning and eager and very healthy, and 
> will
> probably continue to be so for many more years.  Although one can never 
> tell
> how long a particular individual is going to remain healthy and want to
> continue working, it is not at all unusual for miniature horses to work 
> and
> remain active well into their twenties, and to live well up into their
> thirties.  In fact, one of my own riding horses, an Arabian, is 33 years 
> old
> and going strong.
>
> Miniature horse guides do have some disadvantages as compared with dog
> guides.  Being grazing animals which would naturally eat almost 
> continuously
> throughout the day, rather than predators who eat large, widely-spaced 
> meat
> meals, miniature horses do need to eat more often than do dogs.  I feed
> Panda about 4 times per day, as compared with the once or twice a day that
> most dogs are fed.  Also, at least my miniature horse, needs to relieve
> herself more often than do most dogs, about every 2 hours during the day.
>
> Another difference between guide dogs and horses is that the miniature
> horses used as guides are bigger than guide dogs.  They are also less
> flexible, so don't fit under a chair or into as small a space as do dogs.
> Panda does ride on public transportation without difficulty, and rides in 
> my
> family car, which happens to be a mini-van.  She has also ridden in 
> smaller
> cars.  Some miniature horse guides have flown on airplanes, standing or
> lying in the bulkhead row.  But the need for additional space is certainly 
> a
> consideration.  I have not had any difficulty finding places for her to be
> out of the way in restaurants or other public places.  Nowadays, if a 
> place
> of public accommodation complies with the ADA and has enough space for a
> person who uses a wheelchair, then there will be no difficulty finding 
> space
> for a miniature horse service animal.
>
> Oh, one more possible advantage of miniature horses as guides as compared
> with dogs is that some people who object to dogs on religeous or cultural
> grounds have no objection to miniature horses.  And people who are afraid 
> of
> dogs because of their associations with police dogs or guard dogs, usually
> have no fear of a cute little cuddly-looking miniature horse.  (As far as
> the allergy question is concerned, I don't think there is any difference 
> in
> the number of people who are truly allergic to dogs and those who are
> allergic to horses.)
>
> A question that people often ask is whether the bonding process between
> person and guide is the same with a miniature horse as it is with a dog
> guide, and whether miniature horses make as good companions as do dogs.  I
> would say that the bonding process and the process of learning to 
> understand
> and to communicate with the partner is much the same with a miniature 
> horse
> as it is with a dog.  And I would say that miniature horses definitely 
> make
> wonderful companions and friends.  They have their own individual
> personalities, favorite toys, activities, places, and ways of interacting
> with their people, just as dogs do.  But they definitely do seem to come 
> to
> regard us as their family or members of their close social group, and they
> enjoy participating in the activities of their human family or just 
> hanging
> out close to their people, just as dogs do.
>
> Anyway, all of the above is my opinion, of course, based on my limited
> experience of both guide dogs and guide horses.  It is not meant in any 
> way
> to denegrate guide dogs nor to influence anyone's decision as to choice of
> service animal species.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 5:17 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Dogs, NFB and cane travel
>
>
>> Good points Ann!  I also get the feeling that NFB at best tolerates us a 
>> the service animal users.  Our state president however always says to 
>> us,"if you don't like what NFB is about, then chang it".  No, I don't 
>> want to change what we're about entirely.  I believe that everyone should 
>> be taught cane and braille skills.  Especially children who have to grow 
>> into the responsibility of having and caring for an animal.  Also, older 
>> folks should be taught to use the cane and probblem solve before becoming 
>> an animal user.  I have met some dog users who expect there dogs to find 
>> everything for them and protect them from other people as well.  holly 
>> did learn where the coffee pot was at Pilot though!  It was the first 
>> place we went every morning!  I also have heard that stuff about Seeing 
>> Eye and them claiming to take the best of the best!  I'm not really sure 
>> about that but I have read 2 books about the school and they certainly 
>> give that impression!  I don't know if they're right or wrong but I have 
>> met folks from the school who have impressed me and others who I hoped 
>> there dog would would lead them to the edge of a big holw and drop them 
>> in!  lastly, you can write me off list or publish it on list but I'm 
>> really curious about the differences between horse and dog guides.  I 
>> know that horses and dogs are both quite intelligent but that they do 
>> different things with that intelligence.  I don't think for example that 
>> horses are likely to chase squirrels!  Nor do I suspect they are into 
>> crotch sniffing but I am not sure about that one!
>> Intelligence is always claimed but rarely proven!
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