[nagdu] Going out during training

Wed Feb 2 00:36:30 UTC 2011

Not only did Mark have training (and some practice) but he wasn't completely alone. There were so many safety issues built in that it isn't mine to know, but he didn't just take off for parts unknown with his car.

As for the issue about people being expected to go off with their canes when they are at the centers, first of all, canes are not alive and can be manipulated more readily than a dog which is alive and has its own uirks, feelings, and trust issues maybe. Second, do you want to be guided into when you, personally, are ready to leave the ampus with said dog to go do whatever when you will only be there 27 days tops? I think that's asking a lot of a staff which is really quite busy anyway. I think some of the reason is a practial issue for the staff and has nothing to do with their attitudes toward us. Maybe I am just an old woman who prefers to be cared for, but I kind of doubt it.

On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:49 PM, Steven Johnson wrote:

> Peter,
> The difference is that there is a constant with the technology used in the
> vehicle, while the only constant at a given dog guide agency is the
> training.  All dogs are not the same, all people are not the same, and I
> think you are being a little too harsh in your wording.  Conceptually your
> idea makes sense and  it is a good one, but realistaclly, it just doesn't
> work.   I find it difficult to imagine just getting issued a dog and *taking
> off and working it* when you don't even know the quirks of that animal.  It
> is a human animal bond and a trust needs to be built...man and
> technology...not.  Chances are that Mark was trained and had some pretty
> damn good insight as to how to operate this vehicle, correct?  Big
> difference...apples and onions.  
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Peter Donahue
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 5:18 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> 
> Hello again everyone,
> 
>    What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are too high. Lower them because
> 
> blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar environments. 
> After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel alone with new
> 
> dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities. We need to 
> guide them every step of the way."
> 
>    People we just staged a demonstration last Saturday of what is possible 
> when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind is shared by 
> all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the Daytona 
> International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things could have gone 
> horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully navigated the 
> track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning the blind. If
> 
> he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide dog users he 
> never would have had that chance to prove what can be accomplished when the 
> blind have access to information. It would have been a tremendous loss for 
> us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track until last 
> Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of thousands of 
> people.
> 
>    I find it disgusting that we can shine our lights for Mark's achievement
> 
> yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog training. If 
> Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those in guide dog 
> training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to work their 
> dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should be if a team 
> can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel during their 
> training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
> 
>    Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish from people that on occasions 
> criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog users. How can we 
> do more if the organization's hands are tied by those unwilling to allow the
> 
> imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo dished out by
> 
> our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone suggests a 
> possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues be they with 
> training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona last 
> Saturday.
> 
> Peter Donahue
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Tracy:
> 
> I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving Bogart alone 
> in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the rules first by
> 
> showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room was right 
> across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was doing. I live in an
> 
> apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in him that he 
> wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors trusted me 
> and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was trying to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer or two but he 
> was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
> 
> The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were interested in 
> checking out boys at the local coffee shop.  It was actually Bogart's 
> brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a bit with 
> regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
> 
> I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think that if the 
> dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have had to work at 
> it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
> 
> Gary
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
> Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> 
>> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>> unfamiliar area,
>> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>> weeks.  It
>> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>> and, until
>> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>> should happen
>> in the following:
>> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>> class.  People
>> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>> one woman
>> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>> where it
>> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>> go and
>> deal with the problem.
>> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem in their
>> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>> and, if it
>> happens again, send them home.  After all, they're in class
>> to learn how
>> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out they go!
>> 
>> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>> cornerand have a brewski.  But TSE is too far out in the
>> country for that.  GDB
>> too, for that matter.
>> Tracy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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