[nagdu] Going out during training

Wed Feb 2 02:33:37 UTC 2011

Hello Steve and everyone,

    Then remember Daytona.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Johnson" <blinddog3 at charter.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training

Peter,
The difference is that there is a constant with the technology used in the
vehicle, while the only constant at a given dog guide agency is the
training.  All dogs are not the same, all people are not the same, and I
think you are being a little too harsh in your wording.  Conceptually your
idea makes sense and  it is a good one, but realistaclly, it just doesn't
work.   I find it difficult to imagine just getting issued a dog and *taking
off and working it* when you don't even know the quirks of that animal.  It
is a human animal bond and a trust needs to be built...man and
technology...not.  Chances are that Mark was trained and had some pretty
damn good insight as to how to operate this vehicle, correct?  Big
difference...apples and onions.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Peter Donahue
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 5:18 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training

Hello again everyone,

    What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are too high. Lower them because

blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar environments.
After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel alone with new

dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities. We need to
guide them every step of the way."

    People we just staged a demonstration last Saturday of what is possible
when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind is shared by
all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the Daytona
International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things could have gone
horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully navigated the
track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning the blind. If

he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide dog users he
never would have had that chance to prove what can be accomplished when the
blind have access to information. It would have been a tremendous loss for
us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track until last
Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of thousands of
people.

    I find it disgusting that we can shine our lights for Mark's achievement

yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog training. If
Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those in guide dog
training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to work their
dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should be if a team
can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel during their
training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.

    Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish from people that on occasions
criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog users. How can we
do more if the organization's hands are tied by those unwilling to allow the

imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo dished out by

our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone suggests a
possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues be they with
training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona last
Saturday.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training

Hi Tracy:

I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving Bogart alone
in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the rules first by

showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room was right
across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was doing. I live in an

apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in him that he
wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors trusted me
and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was trying to do.

Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer or two but he
was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.

The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were interested in
checking out boys at the local coffee shop.  It was actually Bogart's
brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a bit with
regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.

I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think that if the
dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have had to work at
it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.

Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org

> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
> unfamiliar area,
> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
> weeks.  It
> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
> and, until
> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
> should happen
> in the following:
> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
> class.  People
> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
> one woman
> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
> where it
> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
> go and
> deal with the problem.
> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem in their
> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
> and, if it
> happens again, send them home.  After all, they're in class
> to learn how
> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out they go!
>
> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
> cornerand have a brewski.  But TSE is too far out in the
> country for that.  GDB
> too, for that matter.
> Tracy
>
>
>
>
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