[nagdu] Going out during training

Tamara Smith-Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Wed Feb 2 17:46:19 UTC 2011


Lyn,

Given your extensive experience with guide dog programs -- and that of
others -- I'm curious.  Do you find that the attitudes of the staff a factor
in how demeaning or reasonable the rules they want you to follow are?  

Random thought.  Just suddenly wondering what people think.

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Lyn Gwizdak
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 9:07 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training

Buddy,
Well said and AMEN!

I personally have no problem with the rules or restrictions placed on us 
while at TSE.  I find that at the base of these rules are the welbeing of 
both the dogs and us.  At another school, I found them paternalistic - and 
that had nothing to do with how we needed to work or be with our dogs.

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training


> With all due respect, structured discovery does *not* provide the answer. 
> Guide dog training isn't the same as cane training in several respects, 
> and certainly not like the immersion training that happens at our centers.

> I know of what I speak, having gone through both.
>
> First, guide dog training is much more compressed than cane training is. 
> True, in ideal cases, you should already have the basics down when you get

> your dog, which isn't necessarily so when you enter an orientation center.
>
> But even more than that, a dog has many, many more variables attached than

> using a cane has. All of them have to do with the fact that you're dealing

> with another living being with its own personality. You can't just drop 
> one dog in and expect it to be like working with the dog that you had just

> retired for instance, and I don't care how good a handler you are. With a 
> cane, you have only to learn to trust your four senses and what you're 
> getting from your cane. With a dog, it's a two way thing. Not only do you 
> have to learn to trust your dog, your dog has to learn to trust you. This 
> doesn't happen quickly, and there's enough to deal with in class without 
> putting extra stress not only on yourself, but on your dog. Also, bear in 
> mind that while you're getting to know your dog, he's still learning about

> you and your reactions, and how you differ from a trainer, as much as 
> you're learning about him. It isn't fair to the dog to work a couple 
> routes, then work some more, especially when everyone's still in that 
> getting to know you phase.
>
> Something that they told me at my first class has really stuck with me, 
> and it's something I will never forget. And, I think, in this case, it 
> bears repeating. If your dog could talk, he would say (on matching day, 
> I'm talking about) that he isn't really interested in meeting you or 
> working with you, much less in becoming your lifelong companion. Yeah, 
> your dog really couldn't care less about you, so all of the overtures of 
> friendship and reaching out are on you. That's a reality. With that in 
> mind, you simply an't take "cane" out, plug "dog" in, and expect the same 
> results or the same dynamic. You simply can't.
>
> If you were learning to work with a robot, the "We should be able to go 
> off by ourselves with our robot" thing would work. With a dog? Not so 
> much. During my home placement, I was asked not to work Leno while walking

> with Alena. Any walks I did while not being watched by my instructor were 
> on the order of a couple blocks, solo, and in a fairly quiet setting 
> around my neighborhood. We had other work to do, getting to know each 
> other and trust each other. And those are things you can't rush.
>
> I would humbly suggest that if you're going to say something, give some 
> thought to what you're saying. Structured discovery is a fantastic thing, 
> but it's a tool. It isn't the fix-all answer to every travel problem, and 
> it doesn't begin to cover some of the dynamics involved with training with

> a new dog. "Lack of belief in the capacity of blind people" doesn't even 
> enter into this discussion. As a thinking and competent adult, I think you

> can understand why you can't just go off and put too much onto a new dog 
> or, for that matter, just leave your dog when you like before he fully 
> trusts you. Sometimes being an adult means understanding the need for and 
> abiding by rules. And rules aren't always in place just to keep us 
> oppressed. Please let's think about more than just ourselves sometimes?
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2011, at 6:44 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>    Again Structured-Discovery provides an answer.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 4:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>> In other words, people who are treated like adults should act like 
>> adults?
>> /grin/
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, what about the option of taking your dog with on
>> leash if you're not confident of your teamwork yet?
>>
>> Or, since the dogs are still in the program's possession, do they not 
>> want
>> you taking it off at random?  That would make sense, now that I think 
>> about
>> it.  Sort of...  Depends on the location.  A hop down to the corner store
>> would be one thing, but in the case of one of those remote campuses where
>> you have to go far to get to anything interesting, it might be different?
>>
>> Dunno.  Just wondering.
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Tracy Carcione
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 11:22 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an unfamiliar area,
>> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple weeks.  It
>> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other, and, until
>> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think should happen
>> in the following:
>> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his class.  People
>> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like one woman
>> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room, where it
>> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to go and
>> deal with the problem.
>> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem in their
>> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning, and, if 
>> it
>> happens again, send them home.  After all, they're in class to learn how
>> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out they go!
>>
>> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the corner
>> and have a brewski.  But TSE is too far out in the country for that.  GDB
>> too, for that matter.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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