[nagdu] Going out during training

Doug Parisian eggmann at mts.net
Thu Feb 3 01:42:19 UTC 2011


Come now Cindy, don't you just love giving your trainer a damn good leash 
correction?  I gave a rather solid one which actually caused Pete Jaxon to 
stagger a little when obtaining my second dog.  I wasn't trying to prove 
anything but he had told me my first correction was rather cheesy so I gave 
him what I felt was a moderate taste.  And I really ain't all that 
muscular--must be good technique.

As for going to church, they always offered to take those who wanted to go, 
even on any first sunday I can recall.

As for the cane, I had been thinking of exploring the campus; I didn't use 
it indoors except to swish shoes from under the bed.

I raised cane when I was able, then I became Doug (and dog)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training


> We never went around the leisure path the same way all the time I didn't 
> remember. As for before we get the dog, I used my cane everywhere. I 
> remember when I first got there the first time, I thought I wouldn't be 
> allowed to, and I said to myself that I was going to argue the point. The 
> instructor said, "I see you have a cane. Use it." I have always used the 
> ane freely in the building. Now, perhaps during those first few days, 
> Saturday and Sunday, I wouldn't mind going off the campus some. I actually 
> would like to go to church and have my dreaded Juno Walk afterwards. But 
> didjuno I hate those thangs anyway. LOL.
>
> Cindy
>
> On Feb 2, 2011, at 7:06 PM, Doug Parisian wrote:
>
>> Not quite the jackpot yet.  First, for those who are in doubt, believe me 
>> that, despite that really old TV show "My Mother The Car," vehicles are 
>> not living creatures.  But hey, maybe I'm wrong; after all, don't 
>> vegetables feel pain when they're pealed?
>>
>> One thing I know for sure is that, with the location of Seeing eye, it 
>> would be a long treturous walk to Morristown.  In places where some 
>> access to off-campus entertainment is possible, then I do believe that 
>> the decision should be a joint effort between school and the individual. 
>> I probably could have gone out on the town safely and securely towards 
>> the middle of the second week with my second and third dogs.  Numbers 4th 
>> and 5th dogs, probably at the beginning of the third week.
>>
>> Unless things have changed, I find the wait from Saturday until Tuesday 
>> before we meet our dogs a gigantic waste of time during which period we 
>> weren't even allowed to use our canes (or whatever) in the various spaces 
>> available for walking.  Even when us good little boys and girls are 
>> bestowed the luxury of the leisure path, we're all expected to walk 
>> around in the same direction.
>>
>> Hey, I've already signed an agreement not holding the school responsible 
>> should (fat chance) anything of an injurious nature should happen to me 
>> during my 3 week holiday at the school
>>
>> Doug: Nobody's slave, and nobody's master..
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Johnson" 
>> <blinddog3 at charter.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>>> Jackpot!
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Lisa belville
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these 
>>> policies
>>> are custodial.  Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through 
>>> the
>>> various versions of military boot camps?  They have rules in place, and 
>>> God
>>> help you if you break one of them.  But you don't hear them whining 
>>> about
>>> how the rules are custodial or paternalistic.  Most of them have joined
>>> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
>>> training.  They either go with the program or they leave.  The purpose 
>>> of
>>> this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in order 
>>> to
>>> achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
>>>
>>> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know 
>>> little
>>> about how that dog
>>> reacts to certain situations.  Why would any person who is serious about
>>> working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team by
>>> possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
>>> information.  Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have 
>>> never
>>> had a dog before,
>>> even as a pet.  Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
>>> inability to
>>> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog?  Can you
>>> imagine how the public would react to this?  They already cry abuse when
>>> they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
>>>
>>> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and the
>>> keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for the
>>> same types of reasons.
>>>
>>> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues 
>>> learning
>>>
>>> their dog's personality quirks.  I didn't know how to read the body 
>>> language
>>>
>>> of either of my dogs for the first week at least.  Having someone there 
>>> to
>>> give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and 
>>> leash
>>>
>>> was immensely helpful.  so was the support and socialization I got from
>>> others in the class with me.  Nights were spent learning how to groom, 
>>> pill,
>>>
>>> and entertain my dog.  I personally didn't have the energy to go off 
>>> campus
>>> to do anything else.  The thought that I needed to assert myself as a 
>>> blind
>>> person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because I
>>> knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
>>> period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
>>> better concentrate on working and learning how we worked.  I did leave 
>>> on
>>> the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
>>> relieve my dog.  Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the dog. 
>>> I
>>> didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to 
>>> feel
>>>
>>> oppressed or discriminated against.  I suppose someone with this 
>>> mentality
>>> can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing 
>>> else
>>> but look for it.
>>>
>>> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us 
>>> training
>>> guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
>>> consuming for all involved.  Every component of the highly condensed
>>> training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
>>> formation of a safe and successful team.
>>>
>>> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come and 
>>> go
>>> at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures.  this is a
>>> recipe for failure.  I'm not a dog trainer.  I could never do the owner
>>> trainer thing like Julie and Tami have.  That's why I go to a school.  I
>>> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because 
>>> there
>>> are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and 
>>> who
>>> happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
>>>
>>> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to convince 
>>> the
>>>
>>> leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training 
>>> and
>>> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>>>
>>> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies 
>>> that
>>> I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e., 
>>> inferior
>>> and in need of training simply because I use a dog.  I don't measure up, 
>>> I'm
>>>
>>> not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy 
>>> NFB
>>> to show me the error of my ways.
>>>
>>> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some 
>>> sighted
>>> person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to 
>>> anything.
>>> The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
>>> those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off 
>>> spending
>>>
>>> your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use 
>>> of
>>> the long white cane.  Why should guide dog schools take you seriously if 
>>> you
>>>
>>> can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you 
>>> insist
>>>
>>> you are?
>>>
>>> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national convention.
>>> I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so 
>>> I've
>>>
>>> seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it.  As long 
>>> as
>>> people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization 
>>> and
>>> bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>>>
>>> Lisa
>>>
>>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>>> machine...who knew ?
>>> Lisa Belville
>>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" 
>>> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello Gary and everyone,
>>>>
>>>>   And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog 
>>>> training
>>>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
>>>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers 
>>>> are
>>>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own, 
>>>> with
>>>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the 
>>>> same
>>>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and 
>>>> custodial
>>>> policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you 
>>>> continue
>>>> to
>>>> lap up the excuses put four the  by guide dog programs concerning
>>>> unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
>>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "GARY STEEVES" 
>>>> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of 
>>>> time
>>>> in
>>>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they
>>>> were
>>>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program went
>>>> on.
>>>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until 
>>>> after
>>>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for 
>>>> liability
>>>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>>>>
>>>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a  guide dog and do what 
>>>> was
>>>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there was 
>>>> a
>>>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do
>>>> this
>>>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about ten
>>>> days
>>>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart 
>>>> for
>>>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take
>>>> away
>>>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that we
>>>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability 
>>>> to
>>>> be
>>>> responsible in intregrating  the dogs into our lifes.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>
>>>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>>>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>>>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>>>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>>>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>>>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>>>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too,  and
>>>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>>>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>>>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hello again everyone,
>>>>> >
>>>>> >    What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>>>>> too high. Lower them because
>>>>> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>>>>> environments.
>>>>> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>>>>> alone with new
>>>>> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>>>>> We need to
>>>>> > guide them every step of the way."
>>>>> >
>>>>> >    People we just staged a demonstration last
>>>>> Saturday of what is possible
>>>>> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>>>>> is shared by
>>>>> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>>>>> Daytona
>>>>> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>>>>> could have gone
>>>>> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>>>>> navigated the
>>>>> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>>>>> the blind. If
>>>>> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>>>>> dog users he
>>>>> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>>>>> accomplished when the
>>>>> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
>>>>> tremendous loss for
>>>>> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>>>>> until last
>>>>> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>>>>> thousands of
>>>>> > people.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >    I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>>>>> lights for Mark's achievement
>>>>> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>>>>> training. If
>>>>> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>>>>> in guide dog
>>>>> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>>>>> work their
>>>>> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>>>>> be if a team
>>>>> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>>>>> during their
>>>>> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >    Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>>>>> from people that on occasions
>>>>> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>>>>> users. How can we
>>>>> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>>>>> unwilling to allow the
>>>>> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>>>>> dished out by
>>>>> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>>>>> suggests a
>>>>> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>>>>> be they with
>>>>> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>>>>> last
>>>>> > Saturday.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Peter Donahue
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "GARY STEEVES" 
>>>>> > <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users"
>>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hi Tracy:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>>>>> Bogart alone
>>>>> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>>>>> rules first by
>>>>> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>>>>> was right
>>>>> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>>>>> doing. I live in an
>>>>> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>>>>> him that he
>>>>> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>>>>> trusted me
>>>>> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>>>>> trying to do.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>>>>> or two but he
>>>>> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>>>>> interested in
>>>>> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop.  It was
>>>>> actually Bogart's
>>>>> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>>>>> bit with
>>>>> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>>>>> that if the
>>>>> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>>>>> had to work at
>>>>> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Gary
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>>>>> >> unfamiliar area,
>>>>> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>>>>> >> weeks.  It
>>>>> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>>>>> >> and, until
>>>>> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>>>>> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>>>>> >> should happen
>>>>> >> in the following:
>>>>> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>>>>> >> class.  People
>>>>> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>>>>> >> one woman
>>>>> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>>>>> >> where it
>>>>> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>>>>> >> go and
>>>>> >> deal with the problem.
>>>>> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>>>>> in their
>>>>> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>>>>> >> and, if it
>>>>> >> happens again, send them home.  After all, they're in class
>>>>> >> to learn how
>>>>> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>>>>> they go!
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>>>>> >> cornerand have a brewski.  But TSE is too far out in the
>>>>> >> country for that.  GDB
>>>>> >> too, for that matter.
>>>>> >> Tracy
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> >
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