[nagdu] Going out during training
Tamara Smith-Kinney
tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Thu Feb 3 18:55:02 UTC 2011
Okay, I was scared there for a moment. Back in the day when I first heard
about the taking away of canes, I was absolutely horrified. You're going to
do *what*??? Then I learned that that policy was changing gradually and
breathed a small sigh of relief.
Since TSE is one of my top choices for the present, just in case (and I'd
better not need plan B; I have discussed this with Mitzi at length!), the
idea that they're still doing that as a matter of policy is very shocking.
Because I will not go anywhere without my cane! Even with dog, I have a
pocket or purse cane somewhere on my person in case she stubs a toe.
Mobility is me, and no I can't just grab the nearest sighted person and that
will be fine. I can do it, but it is not fine with me.
Anyway, since I don't need plan B and can leave it lying in the drawer for
now, I guess I can just mark that item as something to investigate as it
comes up. I still honestly can't believe that any organization would
actually do that! Then again, the more I learn about the history of being
blind even in my own lifetime, I am shocked by many things that used to be
true in the treatment, policies and laws when it came to the blind and how
hard people have had to work to change that. Wow!
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Doug Parisian
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 5:42 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Come now Cindy, don't you just love giving your trainer a damn good leash
correction? I gave a rather solid one which actually caused Pete Jaxon to
stagger a little when obtaining my second dog. I wasn't trying to prove
anything but he had told me my first correction was rather cheesy so I gave
him what I felt was a moderate taste. And I really ain't all that
muscular--must be good technique.
As for going to church, they always offered to take those who wanted to go,
even on any first sunday I can recall.
As for the cane, I had been thinking of exploring the campus; I didn't use
it indoors except to swish shoes from under the bed.
I raised cane when I was able, then I became Doug (and dog)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> We never went around the leisure path the same way all the time I didn't
> remember. As for before we get the dog, I used my cane everywhere. I
> remember when I first got there the first time, I thought I wouldn't be
> allowed to, and I said to myself that I was going to argue the point. The
> instructor said, "I see you have a cane. Use it." I have always used the
> ane freely in the building. Now, perhaps during those first few days,
> Saturday and Sunday, I wouldn't mind going off the campus some. I actually
> would like to go to church and have my dreaded Juno Walk afterwards. But
> didjuno I hate those thangs anyway. LOL.
>
> Cindy
>
> On Feb 2, 2011, at 7:06 PM, Doug Parisian wrote:
>
>> Not quite the jackpot yet. First, for those who are in doubt, believe me
>> that, despite that really old TV show "My Mother The Car," vehicles are
>> not living creatures. But hey, maybe I'm wrong; after all, don't
>> vegetables feel pain when they're pealed?
>>
>> One thing I know for sure is that, with the location of Seeing eye, it
>> would be a long treturous walk to Morristown. In places where some
>> access to off-campus entertainment is possible, then I do believe that
>> the decision should be a joint effort between school and the individual.
>> I probably could have gone out on the town safely and securely towards
>> the middle of the second week with my second and third dogs. Numbers 4th
>> and 5th dogs, probably at the beginning of the third week.
>>
>> Unless things have changed, I find the wait from Saturday until Tuesday
>> before we meet our dogs a gigantic waste of time during which period we
>> weren't even allowed to use our canes (or whatever) in the various spaces
>> available for walking. Even when us good little boys and girls are
>> bestowed the luxury of the leisure path, we're all expected to walk
>> around in the same direction.
>>
>> Hey, I've already signed an agreement not holding the school responsible
>> should (fat chance) anything of an injurious nature should happen to me
>> during my 3 week holiday at the school
>>
>> Doug: Nobody's slave, and nobody's master..
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Johnson"
>> <blinddog3 at charter.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>>> Jackpot!
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Lisa belville
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these
>>> policies
>>> are custodial. Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through
>>> the
>>> various versions of military boot camps? They have rules in place, and
>>> God
>>> help you if you break one of them. But you don't hear them whining
>>> about
>>> how the rules are custodial or paternalistic. Most of them have joined
>>> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
>>> training. They either go with the program or they leave. The purpose
>>> of
>>> this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in order
>>> to
>>> achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
>>>
>>> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know
>>> little
>>> about how that dog
>>> reacts to certain situations. Why would any person who is serious about
>>> working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team by
>>> possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
>>> information. Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have
>>> never
>>> had a dog before,
>>> even as a pet. Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
>>> inability to
>>> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog? Can you
>>> imagine how the public would react to this? They already cry abuse when
>>> they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
>>>
>>> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and the
>>> keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for the
>>> same types of reasons.
>>>
>>> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues
>>> learning
>>>
>>> their dog's personality quirks. I didn't know how to read the body
>>> language
>>>
>>> of either of my dogs for the first week at least. Having someone there
>>> to
>>> give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and
>>> leash
>>>
>>> was immensely helpful. so was the support and socialization I got from
>>> others in the class with me. Nights were spent learning how to groom,
>>> pill,
>>>
>>> and entertain my dog. I personally didn't have the energy to go off
>>> campus
>>> to do anything else. The thought that I needed to assert myself as a
>>> blind
>>> person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because I
>>> knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
>>> period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
>>> better concentrate on working and learning how we worked. I did leave
>>> on
>>> the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
>>> relieve my dog. Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the dog.
>>> I
>>> didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to
>>> feel
>>>
>>> oppressed or discriminated against. I suppose someone with this
>>> mentality
>>> can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing
>>> else
>>> but look for it.
>>>
>>> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us
>>> training
>>> guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
>>> consuming for all involved. Every component of the highly condensed
>>> training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
>>> formation of a safe and successful team.
>>>
>>> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come and
>>> go
>>> at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures. this is a
>>> recipe for failure. I'm not a dog trainer. I could never do the owner
>>> trainer thing like Julie and Tami have. That's why I go to a school. I
>>> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because
>>> there
>>> are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and
>>> who
>>> happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
>>>
>>> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to convince
>>> the
>>>
>>> leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training
>>> and
>>> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>>>
>>> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies
>>> that
>>> I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e.,
>>> inferior
>>> and in need of training simply because I use a dog. I don't measure up,
>>> I'm
>>>
>>> not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy
>>> NFB
>>> to show me the error of my ways.
>>>
>>> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some
>>> sighted
>>> person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to
>>> anything.
>>> The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
>>> those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off
>>> spending
>>>
>>> your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use
>>> of
>>> the long white cane. Why should guide dog schools take you seriously if
>>> you
>>>
>>> can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you
>>> insist
>>>
>>> you are?
>>>
>>> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national convention.
>>> I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so
>>> I've
>>>
>>> seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it. As long
>>> as
>>> people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization
>>> and
>>> bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>>>
>>> Lisa
>>>
>>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>>> machine...who knew ?
>>> Lisa Belville
>>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue"
>>> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello Gary and everyone,
>>>>
>>>> And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog
>>>> training
>>>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
>>>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers
>>>> are
>>>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own,
>>>> with
>>>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the
>>>> same
>>>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and
>>>> custodial
>>>> policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you
>>>> continue
>>>> to
>>>> lap up the excuses put four the by guide dog programs concerning
>>>> unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
>>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "GARY STEEVES"
>>>> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of
>>>> time
>>>> in
>>>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they
>>>> were
>>>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program went
>>>> on.
>>>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until
>>>> after
>>>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for
>>>> liability
>>>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>>>>
>>>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a guide dog and do what
>>>> was
>>>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there was
>>>> a
>>>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do
>>>> this
>>>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about ten
>>>> days
>>>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart
>>>> for
>>>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take
>>>> away
>>>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that we
>>>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability
>>>> to
>>>> be
>>>> responsible in intregrating the dogs into our lifes.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>
>>>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>>>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>>>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>>>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>>>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>>>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>>>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too, and
>>>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>>>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>>>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hello again everyone,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>>>>> too high. Lower them because
>>>>> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>>>>> environments.
>>>>> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>>>>> alone with new
>>>>> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>>>>> We need to
>>>>> > guide them every step of the way."
>>>>> >
>>>>> > People we just staged a demonstration last
>>>>> Saturday of what is possible
>>>>> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>>>>> is shared by
>>>>> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>>>>> Daytona
>>>>> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>>>>> could have gone
>>>>> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>>>>> navigated the
>>>>> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>>>>> the blind. If
>>>>> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>>>>> dog users he
>>>>> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>>>>> accomplished when the
>>>>> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
>>>>> tremendous loss for
>>>>> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>>>>> until last
>>>>> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>>>>> thousands of
>>>>> > people.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>>>>> lights for Mark's achievement
>>>>> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>>>>> training. If
>>>>> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>>>>> in guide dog
>>>>> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>>>>> work their
>>>>> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>>>>> be if a team
>>>>> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>>>>> during their
>>>>> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>>>>> from people that on occasions
>>>>> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>>>>> users. How can we
>>>>> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>>>>> unwilling to allow the
>>>>> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>>>>> dished out by
>>>>> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>>>>> suggests a
>>>>> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>>>>> be they with
>>>>> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>>>>> last
>>>>> > Saturday.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Peter Donahue
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "GARY STEEVES"
>>>>> > <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users"
>>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hi Tracy:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>>>>> Bogart alone
>>>>> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>>>>> rules first by
>>>>> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>>>>> was right
>>>>> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>>>>> doing. I live in an
>>>>> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>>>>> him that he
>>>>> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>>>>> trusted me
>>>>> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>>>>> trying to do.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>>>>> or two but he
>>>>> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>>>>> interested in
>>>>> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop. It was
>>>>> actually Bogart's
>>>>> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>>>>> bit with
>>>>> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>>>>> that if the
>>>>> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>>>>> had to work at
>>>>> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Gary
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>>>>> >> unfamiliar area,
>>>>> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>>>>> >> weeks. It
>>>>> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>>>>> >> and, until
>>>>> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>>>>> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>>>>> >> should happen
>>>>> >> in the following:
>>>>> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>>>>> >> class. People
>>>>> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>>>>> >> one woman
>>>>> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>>>>> >> where it
>>>>> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>>>>> >> go and
>>>>> >> deal with the problem.
>>>>> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>>>>> in their
>>>>> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>>>>> >> and, if it
>>>>> >> happens again, send them home. After all, they're in class
>>>>> >> to learn how
>>>>> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>>>>> they go!
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>>>>> >> cornerand have a brewski. But TSE is too far out in the
>>>>> >> country for that. GDB
>>>>> >> too, for that matter.
>>>>> >> Tracy
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> >
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