[nagdu] The Seeing Eye & Ownership

Thu Feb 3 19:23:33 UTC 2011

Sandy,

Well said!  For my own reasons, my sticking point is ownership upon
graduation, and I am glad to know I will have that option in a couple of
programs (at present) and can base my choices on other factors having that
matter settled.

That's me, and you're right that it's largely a matter of individual
psychology for the most part.  Most schools *don't* abuse the policy either
way, so it's simply a matter of something on paper unless something weird
happens...  Sounds like a couple of schools are making it a practice to
abuse their legal ownership, in which case we're dealing with them directly.
Sounds like some programs have abused graduates in a similar way even though
the handler legally had ownership....

For those who feel more comfortable and belief it is a benefit to them for
their own reasons that they're happy to have the ownership of the dog, then
they can base their choice of school on that.  For those who are neutral on
the ownership, they can base their choices on other factors...

Hm...  So that's individual psychology and belief and preference in the
current market...  When it comes to NAGDU as an advocacy organization
considering whether to come up with a federal legislative agenda on that or
any issue, I simply don't have the experience of knowledge (now; I just keep
learning from those who do) to have much useful input on what specifically
*needs* to be done and how it should be presented and, well, all of the
things that go into making sure we would present a good proposal that would
accomplish what we want it to instead of something else entirely....

I live in the first state to adopt the initiative system -- you know, where
we all vote on constitutional amendments, thus bypassing the legislature.
So we were the first to become a total mess and were bankrupt way before it
became trendy for states to do so.  You would not *believe* the actual
wording of some of the laws on our books as constitutional amendments!  Then
there was the crook who came up with some the ones that are both bizarre and
badly written...  It ain't pretty!

So as much as feel as frustrated as anybody sometimes when some fine point
is being discussed in fine detail over and over and consensus seems
unreachable, I believe that process is invaluable.  I've read some fairly
good proposals on a couple of the original items on the bill or rights
proposal that I thought could well address specific issues and protections
to accomplish the desired result...

Bummed the dialogue there got hijacked so badly, but I'm still reading good
stuff and discussion from during and after the dedicated trouble making.
Yay us!  I'm kinda proud of everybody.

Okay, back to catching up on my reading.  /smile/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Sandra e. Finley
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:03 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Seeing Eye & Ownership

I kind of like GDB's policy that I don't own the dog immediately upon 
graduation but am free to apply for ownership; I forget if it is after one 
or two years. Through no fault of mine or theirs I had difficulty with one
dog within the first year after she was issued and she had to be returned 
and retired.  At the time I somehow felt good that I did not own her. I 
truly believe this is all psychological whether we own the dog or not. 
Repputable organizations are going to provide appropriate follow up
regardless of ownership. In 37 years of guide dog use I have never worried
that either of the two schools i have used would come and take back my 
seasoned, working guide. Why would they? I recently had a major vet bill to
save my dog's life and GDB was most responsive, helping us with the parts we
felt we could not afford.  I don't think that TSE or GDB or any of the other
reputable organizations base a decision of follow up, payment of vet bills 
or
retirement on  who owns the dog.  I say, isn't it good we have organizations

with difffering policies? It Gives us some choice.

Sandy
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:11 AM
Subject: [nagdu] The Seeing Eye & Ownership

> Dear All,
>    Let me begin by saying I am not a seeing Eye consumer. It is my opinion
> that The Seeing Eye has it right, as it relates to ownership. In short,
> TSE believes that the dog belongs to the consumer and it is the consumer's
> right to make all decisions as it pertains to the dog. This includes both
> early and end-of-work retirement,even after the consumer makes the
> difficult choice to surrender the dog, as illustrated by Peggy's
> experience.
>    One untruth Mr. Russman stated during our telephone conversation, when
> I asserted that TSE grants full ownership upon completion of training, was
> that TSE does not offer any sort of follow-up. I told him I knew too many
> TSE consumers and that he was absolutely wrong. Then he qualified his
> statement by saying something like, "Well, not to the level of Fidelco!"
> If, by that he means the type of follow-up in which they call and say, "I
> am five minutes from your house and I am coming over to see your dog!", he
> is right! I feel no guide dog program should impose themselves upon their
> consumers. Such tactics are very intimidating and paternalistic!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>
>> With Se, once you leave the school with that dog it's yours to do what
>> you wish with, hopefully work it.  But when it retires, no matter when
>> that is, you can choose to keep him/her or give him/her to a friend or
>> family, or send him/her back to SE.  When I gave up my first dog, a
>> yellow lab, that was having some definate anxiety issues, I had only
>> worked her for a year and a half ... I could have kept her, given her to
>> someone ... what I chose to do was send her back to SE to see if they
>> could work with her and maybe she could continue guide dog work.  She did
>> retire and they notified me that she could not be retrained and even
>> asked if I wanted her back as a pet. Just thought I'd share because I saw
>> at the end of the post you said you weren't sure if after a short time
>> they'd still let you keep the dog ... at least I thought that's what you
>> meant.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:00 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> If you get a dog at TSE and within the first year you find that the dog
>> is not working out for you, they will replace it and apply the fee to the
>> next dog and call it an adjustment. In such a case, it would be only
>> right for you to return the dog to them. Jordan's is the only story I
>> have ever heard of a repossession, and I suspect there is more to the
>> story that we don't know and probably don't have a right to know, but it
>> seems like aserioius allegation given that this is not their policy and
>> the dog is yours upon leaving the school. To say they don't care is
>> really what you perceive, many of the rest of us do not see that. When I
>> hae not been able to continue with a dog (and I two such within a year's
>> period that had to return) I would never have found the dog a home but,
>> rather, would hve wanted to return it there for their evaluation. The two
>> with which I experienced it were retired, far as I know, and the one I
>> had for two years and returned, I did because I thought he might be a
>> better fit for someone else. I think I could have given him away if I had
>> wanted to. Never tested out this theory.
>>
>>
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