[nagdu] Going out during training
Lisa belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com
Thu Feb 3 20:24:29 UTC 2011
I agree. Maybe for formerly sighted people it could happen, but usually it
just takes me a second to get back in step. I don't use the two point touch
most of us were taught in O&M, I like the constant contact I get. It does
take longer to remember that the cane is going to find all of those cracks
and poles, and that my veering issue was greatly aided by my dog. I hate
going across open spaces like parking lots with a cane. We have tons of
those around here, and it's just one reason I opted for a dog.
The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
machine...who knew ?
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> Is it me or is the idea that you can forget how to use a cane just silly.
> I've used a cane since I was tiny. It's like brushing my teeth. If I
> forget how to do either, I'm in real trouble and probably couldn't manage
> a dog. I say this seriously, what is up with "forgetting to use a cane?" I
> don't understand.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of cheryl echevarria
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:17 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
> On this I agree with Peter, the schools do not deny guide dogs, they want
> us to work on all our skills, if it means that you use a cane part of the
> day and the dog on another what is wrong with that.
>
> There will be a time when we don't have our dogs then what, you don't
> remember how to use your cane.
>
> The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services!
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> http://www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
> 1-866-580-5574 or 631-456-5394
> reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
> CST-1018299-10
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel
> Inc.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter Donahue<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 5:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
> Hello Lisa and everyone,
>
> I'm talking about guide dog training not the military which on
> occasion
> engages in top-secret and covert operations. If NFB center students are
> required to use their canes during class hours and in their free time to
> hone their travel skills students in guide dog training should be
> expected
> to do likewise. Remember Daytona.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lisa belville"
> <missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these
> policies
> are custodial. Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through
> the
> various versions of military boot camps? They have rules in place, and
> God
> help you if you break one of them. But you don't hear them whining about
> how the rules are custodial or paternalistic. Most of them have joined
> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
> training. They either go with the program or they leave. The purpose of
> this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in order
> to
> achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
>
> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know
> little
> about how that dog
> reacts to certain situations. Why would any person who is serious about
> working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team by
> possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
> information. Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have
> never
> had a dog before,
> even as a pet. Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
> inability to
> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog? Can you
> imagine how the public would react to this? They already cry abuse when
> they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
>
> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and the
> keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for the
> same types of reasons.
>
> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues
> learning
> their dog's personality quirks. I didn't know how to read the body
> language
> of either of my dogs for the first week at least. Having someone there
> to
> give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and
> leash
> was immensely helpful. so was the support and socialization I got from
> others in the class with me. Nights were spent learning how to groom,
> pill,
> and entertain my dog. I personally didn't have the energy to go off
> campus
> to do anything else. The thought that I needed to assert myself as a
> blind
> person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because I
> knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
> period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
> better concentrate on working and learning how we worked. I did leave on
> the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
> relieve my dog. Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the dog.
> I
> didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to
> feel
> oppressed or discriminated against. I suppose someone with this
> mentality
> can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing
> else
> but look for it.
>
> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us
> training
> guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
> consuming for all involved. Every component of the highly condensed
> training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
> formation of a safe and successful team.
>
> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come and
> go
> at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures. this is a
> recipe for failure. I'm not a dog trainer. I could never do the owner
> trainer thing like Julie and Tami have. That's why I go to a school. I
> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because there
> are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and who
> happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
>
> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to convince
> the
> leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training
> and
> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>
> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies
> that
> I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e.,
> inferior
> and in need of training simply because I use a dog. I don't measure up,
> I'm
> not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy
> NFB
> to show me the error of my ways.
>
> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some
> sighted
> person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to anything.
> The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
> those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
>
> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off
> spending
> your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use of
> the long white cane. Why should guide dog schools take you seriously if
> you
> can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you
> insist
> you are?
>
> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national convention.
> I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so
> I've
> seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it. As long
> as
> people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization
> and
> bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>
> Lisa
>
> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
> machine...who knew ?
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue"
> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
> > Hello Gary and everyone,
> >
> > And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog
> training
> > programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
> > instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers
> are
> > expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own,
> with
> > another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the
> same
> > when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and
> custodial
> > policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you
> continue
> > to
> > lap up the excuses put four the by guide dog programs concerning
> > unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
> >
> > Peter Donahue
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "GARY STEEVES"
> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>
> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> >
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of
> time
> > in
> > the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they
> > were
> > accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program went
> > on.
> > No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until
> after
> > they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for
> liability
> > and safety reasons as others have stated.
> >
> > Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a guide dog and do what
> was
> > required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there was
> a
> > jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do
> > this
> > since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about ten
> > days
> > I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart
> for
> > some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take
> > away
> > my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that we
> > developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability
> to
> > be
> > responsible in intregrating the dogs into our lifes.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com<mailto:cindyray at gmail.com>>
> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> >
> >> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
> >> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
> >> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
> >> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
> >> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
> >> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
> >> competent adult? There are liability issues, too, and
> >> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
> >> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
> >> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
> >>
> >> Cindy
> >>
> >> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hello again everyone,
> >> >
> >> > What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
> >> too high. Lower them because
> >> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
> >> environments.
> >> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
> >> alone with new
> >> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
> >> We need to
> >> > guide them every step of the way."
> >> >
> >> > People we just staged a demonstration last
> >> Saturday of what is possible
> >> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
> >> is shared by
> >> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
> >> Daytona
> >> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
> >> could have gone
> >> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
> >> navigated the
> >> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
> >> the blind. If
> >> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
> >> dog users he
> >> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
> >> accomplished when the
> >> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
> >> tremendous loss for
> >> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
> >> until last
> >> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
> >> thousands of
> >> > people.
> >> >
> >> > I find it disgusting that we can shine our
> >> lights for Mark's achievement
> >> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
> >> training. If
> >> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
> >> in guide dog
> >> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
> >> work their
> >> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
> >> be if a team
> >> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
> >> during their
> >> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
> >> >
> >> > Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
> >> from people that on occasions
> >> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
> >> users. How can we
> >> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
> >> unwilling to allow the
> >> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
> >> dished out by
> >> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
> >> suggests a
> >> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
> >> be they with
> >> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
> >> last
> >> > Saturday.
> >> >
> >> > Peter Donahue
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "GARY STEEVES"
> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>
> >> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> >> Users"
> >> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi Tracy:
> >> >
> >> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
> >> Bogart alone
> >> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
> >> rules first by
> >> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
> >> was right
> >> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
> >> doing. I live in an
> >> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
> >> him that he
> >> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
> >> trusted me
> >> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
> >> trying to do.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
> >> or two but he
> >> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
> >> >
> >> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
> >> interested in
> >> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop. It was
> >> actually Bogart's
> >> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
> >> bit with
> >> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
> >> >
> >> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
> >> that if the
> >> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
> >> had to work at
> >> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
> >> >
> >> > Gary
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: Tracy Carcione
> <carcione at access.net<mailto:carcione at access.net>>
> >> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
> >> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
> >> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> >
> >> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
> >> >> unfamiliar area,
> >> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
> >> >> weeks. It
> >> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
> >> >> and, until
> >> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
> >> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
> >> >> should happen
> >> >> in the following:
> >> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
> >> >> class. People
> >> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
> >> >> one woman
> >> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
> >> >> where it
> >> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
> >> >> go and
> >> >> deal with the problem.
> >> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
> >> in their
> >> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
> >> >> and, if it
> >> >> happens again, send them home. After all, they're in class
> >> >> to learn how
> >> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
> >> they go!
> >> >>
> >> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
> >> >> cornerand have a brewski. But TSE is too far out in the
> >> >> country for that. GDB
> >> >> too, for that matter.
> >> >> Tracy
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
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