[nagdu] Going out during training

Terra Syslo tlsyslo at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 4 00:13:15 UTC 2011


I don't use the "proper way then either. I tend to slide my cane across the
sidewalk and tap. I've seen several people at our training center use theirs
differently too. 

Check out my groups: blindshoppers-subscribe at yahoogroups.com and
blindrecipeexchange-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Email, Facebook and Windows Messenger: tlsyslo at yahoo.com
twitter: tlsyslo


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Lisa belville
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:26 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training

Cheryl, as I said, I use a constant contact method.  This isn't the 
so-called correct way to use a cane.  What would you consider the correct 
way to use a cane?  It's just like using a dog.  We might be shown some 
basics in training, but many of us will adapt things to our own environment 
or a specific situation.


The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise 
machine...who knew ?
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training


>I know many people who don't know how to use a cane correctly now and they 
>have used a cane all there lives.
>
> They are not trained properly.
>
> Each person is different.
>
> The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services!
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> http://www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
> 1-866-580-5574 or 631-456-5394
>
reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel 
> CST-1018299-10
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel 
> Inc.
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)<mailto:REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>  To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
> Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>  Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:51 PM
>  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>  Is it me or is the idea that you can forget how to use a cane just silly.

> I've used a cane since I was tiny. It's like brushing my teeth. If I 
> forget how to do either, I'm in real trouble and probably couldn't manage 
> a dog. I say this seriously, what is up with "forgetting to use a cane?" I

> don't understand.
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> 
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of cheryl echevarria
>  Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:17 PM
>  To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>  On this I agree with Peter, the schools do not deny guide dogs, they want

> us to work on all our skills, if it means that you use a cane part of the 
> day and the dog on another what is wrong with that.
>
>  There will be a time when we don't have our dogs then what, you don't 
> remember how to use your cane.
>
>  The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services!
>
>  Cheryl Echevarria
> 
>
http://www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.
echevarriatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>
>  1-866-580-5574 or 631-456-5394
> 
>
reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com<m
ailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:reservations at echevarriatrav
el.com>>
>
>  Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel 
> CST-1018299-10
>  Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel 
> Inc.
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    From: Peter 
> Donahue<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>>
>    To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>    Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 5:57 PM
>    Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>    Hello Lisa and everyone,
>
>        I'm talking about guide dog training not the military which on 
> occasion
>    engages in top-secret and covert operations. If NFB center students are
>    required to use their canes during class hours and in their free time 
> to
>    hone their travel skills students in guide dog training should be 
> expected
>    to do likewise. Remember Daytona.
>
>    Peter Donahue
>
>
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    From: "Lisa belville" 
>
<missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktl
ab1217 at frontier.com%3Cmailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>>>
>    To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 
>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
agdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>    Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
>    Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>    Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these 
> policies
>    are custodial.  Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through

> the
>    various versions of military boot camps?  They have rules in place, and

> God
>    help you if you break one of them.  But you don't hear them whining 
> about
>    how the rules are custodial or paternalistic.  Most of them have joined
>    whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
>    training.  They either go with the program or they leave.  The purpose 
> of
>    this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in 
> order to
>    achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
>
>    People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know 
> little
>    about how that dog
>    reacts to certain situations.  Why would any person who is serious 
> about
>    working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team 
> by
>    possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
>    information.  Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have 
> never
>    had a dog before,
>    even as a pet.  Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
>    inability to
>    properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog?  Can you
>    imagine how the public would react to this?  They already cry abuse 
> when
>    they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
>
>    To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and 
> the
>    keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for 
> the
>    same types of reasons.
>
>    Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues 
> learning
>    their dog's personality quirks.  I didn't know how to read the body 
> language
>    of either of my dogs for the first week at least.  Having someone there

> to
>    give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and 
> leash
>    was immensely helpful.  so was the support and socialization I got from
>    others in the class with me.  Nights were spent learning how to groom, 
> pill,
>    and entertain my dog.  I personally didn't have the energy to go off 
> campus
>    to do anything else.  The thought that I needed to assert myself as a 
> blind
>    person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because 
> I
>    knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
>    period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
>    better concentrate on working and learning how we worked.  I did leave 
> on
>    the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
>    relieve my dog.  Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the 
> dog.  I
>    didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to

> feel
>    oppressed or discriminated against.  I suppose someone with this 
> mentality
>    can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing 
> else
>    but look for it.
>
>    Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us 
> training
>    guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
>    consuming for all involved.  Every component of the highly condensed
>    training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
>    formation of a safe and successful team.
>
>    If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come 
> and go
>    at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures.  this is a
>    recipe for failure.  I'm not a dog trainer.  I could never do the owner
>    trainer thing like Julie and Tami have.  That's why I go to a school. 
> I
>    don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because 
> there
>    are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and 
> who
>    happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
>
>    I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to 
> convince the
>    leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training 
> and
>    not only during certain areas or training classes.
>
>    This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies 
> that
>    I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e., 
> inferior
>    and in need of training simply because I use a dog.  I don't measure 
> up, I'm
>    not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy

> NFB
>    to show me the error of my ways.
>
>    This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some 
> sighted
>    person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to 
> anything.
>    The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
>    those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
>
>    In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off 
> spending
>    your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use 
> of
>    the long white cane.  Why should guide dog schools take you seriously 
> if you
>    can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you 
> insist
>    you are?
>
>    And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national 
> convention.
>    I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so

> I've
>    seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it.  As 
> long as
>    people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization

> and
>    bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>
>    Lisa
>
>    The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>    machine...who knew ?
>    Lisa Belville
> 
>
missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktla
b1217 at frontier.com%3Cmailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>>
>
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    From: "Peter Donahue" 
>
<pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr
.com%3Cmailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>>>
>    To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 
>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
agdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>    Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
>    Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>    > Hello Gary and everyone,
>    >
>    >    And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog 
> training
>    > programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
>    > instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers 
> are
>    > expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own, 
> with
>    > another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the 
> same
>    > when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and 
> custodial
>    > policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you 
> continue
>    > to
>    > lap up the excuses put four the  by guide dog programs concerning
>    > unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
>    >
>    > Peter Donahue
>    >
>    >
>    > ----- Original Message -----
>    > From: "GARY STEEVES" 
>
<rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmus
ic at shaw.ca%3Cmailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>>
>    > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>    > 
>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
agdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>    > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>    > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>    >
>    >
>    > Hi:
>    >
>    > Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of 
> time
>    > in
>    > the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally 
> they
>    > were
>    > accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program 
> went
>    > on.
>    > No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until 
> after
>    > they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for 
> liability
>    > and safety reasons as others have stated.
>    >
>    > Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a  guide dog and do 
> what was
>    > required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there 
> was a
>    > jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not 
> do
>    > this
>    > since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about 
> ten
>    > days
>    > I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave 
> Bogart for
>    > some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to 
> take
>    > away
>    > my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that 
> we
>    > developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our 
> ability to
>    > be
>    > responsible in intregrating  the dogs into our lifes.
>    >
>    > Gary
>    >
>    >
>    > ----- Original Message -----
>    > From: Cindy Ray 
>
<cindyray at gmail.com<mailto:cindyray at gmail.com<mailto:cindyray at gmail.com%3Cma
ilto:cindyray at gmail.com>>>
>    > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>    > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>    > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>    > 
>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
agdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>    >
>    >> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>    >> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>    >> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>    >> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>    >> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>    >> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>    >> competent adult? There are liability issues, too,  and
>    >> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>    >> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>    >> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>    >>
>    >> Cindy
>    >>
>    >> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>    >>
>    >> > Hello again everyone,
>    >> >
>    >> >    What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>    >> too high. Lower them because
>    >> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>    >> environments.
>    >> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>    >> alone with new
>    >> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>    >> We need to
>    >> > guide them every step of the way."
>    >> >
>    >> >    People we just staged a demonstration last
>    >> Saturday of what is possible
>    >> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>    >> is shared by
>    >> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>    >> Daytona
>    >> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>    >> could have gone
>    >> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>    >> navigated the
>    >> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>    >> the blind. If
>    >> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>    >> dog users he
>    >> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>    >> accomplished when the
>    >> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
>    >> tremendous loss for
>    >> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>    >> until last
>    >> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>    >> thousands of
>    >> > people.
>    >> >
>    >> >    I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>    >> lights for Mark's achievement
>    >> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>    >> training. If
>    >> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>    >> in guide dog
>    >> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>    >> work their
>    >> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>    >> be if a team
>    >> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>    >> during their
>    >> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>    >> >
>    >> >    Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>    >> from people that on occasions
>    >> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>    >> users. How can we
>    >> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>    >> unwilling to allow the
>    >> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>    >> dished out by
>    >> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>    >> suggests a
>    >> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>    >> be they with
>    >> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>    >> last
>    >> > Saturday.
>    >> >
>    >> > Peter Donahue
>    >> >
>    >> > ----- Original Message -----
>    >> > From: "GARY STEEVES" 
>
<rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmus
ic at shaw.ca%3Cmailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>>
>    >> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>    >> Users"
>    >> > 
>
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
agdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>    >> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>    >> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>    >> >
>    >> >
>    >> >
>    >> > Hi Tracy:
>    >> >
>    >> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>    >> Bogart alone
>    >> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>    >> rules first by
>    >> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>    >> was right
>    >> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>    >> doing. I live in an
>    >> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>    >> him that he
>    >> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>    >> trusted me
>    >> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>    >> trying to do.
>    >> >
>    >> >
>    >> >
>    >> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>    >> or two but he
>    >> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>    >> >
>    >> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>    >> interested in
>    >> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop.  It was
>    >> actually Bogart's
>    >> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>    >> bit with
>    >> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>    >> >
>    >> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>    >> that if the
>    >> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>    >> had to work at
>    >> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>    >> >
>    >> > Gary
>    >> >
>    >> > ----- Original Message -----
>    >> > From: Tracy Carcione 
>
<carcione at access.net<mailto:carcione at access.net<mailto:carcione at access.net%3
Cmailto:carcione at access.net>>>
>    >> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>    >> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>    >> > To: 
>
nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>    >> >
>    >> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>    >> >> unfamiliar area,
>    >> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>    >> >> weeks.  It
>    >> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>    >> >> and, until
>    >> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>    >> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>    >> >> should happen
>    >> >> in the following:
>    >> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>    >> >> class.  People
>    >> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>    >> >> one woman
>    >> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>    >> >> where it
>    >> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>    >> >> go and
>    >> >> deal with the problem.
>    >> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>    >> in their
>    >> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>    >> >> and, if it
>    >> >> happens again, send them home.  After all, they're in class
>    >> >> to learn how
>    >> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>    >> they go!
>    >> >>
>    >> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>    >> >> cornerand have a brewski.  But TSE is too far out in the
>    >> >> country for that.  GDB
>    >> >> too, for that matter.
>    >> >> Tracy
>    >> >>
>    >> >>
>    >> >>
>    >> >>
>    >> >> _______________________________________________
>    >> >> nagdu mailing list
>    >> >> 
>
nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>    >> >> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>    >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>    >> >> info for nagdu:
>    >> >>
>    >> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40sha
w.ca<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%
40shaw.ca<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowm
usic%40shaw.ca%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rain
shadowmusic%40shaw.ca>>>>
>    >> >
>    >> > _______________________________________________
>    >> > nagdu mailing list
>    >> > 
>
nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>    >> > 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>    >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>    >> info for nagdu:
>    >> >
>    >> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.c
om<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r
r.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40sat
x.rr.com%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%
40satx.rr.com>>
>    >> >
>    >> >
>    >> > _______________________________________________
>    >> > nagdu mailing list
>    >> > 
>
nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>    >> > 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>    >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>    >> info for nagdu:
>    >> >
>    >> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com<
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com<
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com%
3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.co
m>>
>    >>
>    >> _______________________________________________
>    >> nagdu mailing list
>    >> 
>
nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>    >> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>    >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>    >> info for nagdu:
>    >> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40sha
w.ca<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%
40shaw.ca<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowm
usic%40shaw.ca%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rain
shadowmusic%40shaw.ca>>
>    >>
>    >
>    > _______________________________________________
>    > nagdu mailing list
>    > 
>
nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>    > 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>    > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>    > nagdu:
>    > 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.c
om<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r
r.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40sat
x.rr.com%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%
40satx.rr.com>>
>    >
>    >
>    > _______________________________________________
>    > nagdu mailing list
>    > 
>
nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>    > 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>    > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>    > nagdu:
>    > 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/missktlab1217%40front
ier.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/missktlab1217
%40frontier.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/missk
tlab1217%40frontier.com%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet
.org/missktlab1217%40frontier.com>>
>
>
>    _______________________________________________
>    nagdu mailing list
> 
>
nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
gdu at nfbnet.org>>
> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>    To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.c
om<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r
r.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40sat
x.rr.com%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%
40satx.rr.com>>
>
>
>    _______________________________________________
>    nagdu mailing list
> 
>
nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
gdu at nfbnet.org>>
> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>    To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotma
il.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%
40hotmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cheryla
ndmaxx%40hotmail.com%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.or
g/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com>>
>  _______________________________________________
>  nagdu mailing list
>  nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40ta
sc.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickre
ll%40tasc.com>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  nagdu mailing list
>  nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> 
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotma
il.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%
40hotmail.com>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/missktlab1217%40front
ier.com 


_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tlsyslo%40yahoo.com





More information about the NAGDU mailing list