[nagdu] Going out during training
d m gina
dmgina at samobile.net
Thu Feb 3 20:42:39 UTC 2011
I use the roll tip so I don't have to lift the cane much.
The rist isn't strong to do this all of the time.
So rolling works well.
Original message:
> Cheryl, as I said, I use a constant contact method. This isn't the
> so-called correct way to use a cane. What would you consider the correct
> way to use a cane? It's just like using a dog. We might be shown some
> basics in training, but many of us will adapt things to our own environment
> or a specific situation.
> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
> machine...who knew ?
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>> I know many people who don't know how to use a cane correctly now and they
>> have used a cane all there lives.
>> They are not trained properly.
>> Each person is different.
>> The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services!
>> Cheryl Echevarria
>> http://www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
>> 1-866-580-5574 or 631-456-5394
>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>> CST-1018299-10
>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel
>> Inc.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)<mailto:REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>> Is it me or is the idea that you can forget how to use a cane just silly.
>> I've used a cane since I was tiny. It's like brushing my teeth. If I
>> forget how to do either, I'm in real trouble and probably couldn't manage
>> a dog. I say this seriously, what is up with "forgetting to use a cane?" I
>> don't understand.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of cheryl echevarria
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:17 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>> On this I agree with Peter, the schools do not deny guide dogs, they want
>> us to work on all our skills, if it means that you use a cane part of the
>> day and the dog on another what is wrong with that.
>> There will be a time when we don't have our dogs then what, you don't
>> remember how to use your cane.
>> The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services!
>> Cheryl Echevarria
>> http://www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevarriatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>
>> 1-866-580-5574 or 631-456-5394
>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>>
>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>> CST-1018299-10
>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel
>> Inc.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Peter
>> Donahue<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>>
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 5:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>> Hello Lisa and everyone,
>> I'm talking about guide dog training not the military which on
>> occasion
>> engages in top-secret and covert operations. If NFB center students are
>> required to use their canes during class hours and in their free time
>> to
>> hone their travel skills students in guide dog training should be
>> expected
>> to do likewise. Remember Daytona.
>> Peter Donahue
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lisa belville"
>> <missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com%3Cmailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>>>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these
>> policies
>> are custodial. Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through
>> the
>> various versions of military boot camps? They have rules in place, and
>> God
>> help you if you break one of them. But you don't hear them whining
>> about
>> how the rules are custodial or paternalistic. Most of them have joined
>> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
>> training. They either go with the program or they leave. The purpose
>> of
>> this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in
>> order to
>> achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
>> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know
>> little
>> about how that dog
>> reacts to certain situations. Why would any person who is serious
>> about
>> working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team
>> by
>> possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
>> information. Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have
>> never
>> had a dog before,
>> even as a pet. Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
>> inability to
>> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog? Can you
>> imagine how the public would react to this? They already cry abuse
>> when
>> they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
>> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and
>> the
>> keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for
>> the
>> same types of reasons.
>> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues
>> learning
>> their dog's personality quirks. I didn't know how to read the body
>> language
>> of either of my dogs for the first week at least. Having someone there
>> to
>> give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and
>> leash
>> was immensely helpful. so was the support and socialization I got from
>> others in the class with me. Nights were spent learning how to groom,
>> pill,
>> and entertain my dog. I personally didn't have the energy to go off
>> campus
>> to do anything else. The thought that I needed to assert myself as a
>> blind
>> person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because
>> I
>> knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
>> period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
>> better concentrate on working and learning how we worked. I did leave
>> on
>> the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
>> relieve my dog. Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the
>> dog. I
>> didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to
>> feel
>> oppressed or discriminated against. I suppose someone with this
>> mentality
>> can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing
>> else
>> but look for it.
>> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us
>> training
>> guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
>> consuming for all involved. Every component of the highly condensed
>> training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
>> formation of a safe and successful team.
>> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come
>> and go
>> at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures. this is a
>> recipe for failure. I'm not a dog trainer. I could never do the owner
>> trainer thing like Julie and Tami have. That's why I go to a school.
>> I
>> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because
>> there
>> are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and
>> who
>> happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
>> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to
>> convince the
>> leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training
>> and
>> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies
>> that
>> I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e.,
>> inferior
>> and in need of training simply because I use a dog. I don't measure
>> up, I'm
>> not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy
>> NFB
>> to show me the error of my ways.
>> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some
>> sighted
>> person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to
>> anything.
>> The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
>> those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
>> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off
>> spending
>> your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use
>> of
>> the long white cane. Why should guide dog schools take you seriously
>> if you
>> can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you
>> insist
>> you are?
>> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national
>> convention.
>> I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so
>> I've
>> seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it. As
>> long as
>> people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization
>> and
>> bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>> Lisa
>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>> machine...who knew ?
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com%3Cmailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Donahue"
>> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com%3Cmailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>>>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>> Hello Gary and everyone,
>>> And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog
>> training
>>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
>>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers
>> are
>>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own,
>> with
>>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the
>> same
>>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and
>> custodial
>>> policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you
>> continue
>>> to
>>> lap up the excuses put four the by guide dog programs concerning
>>> unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
>>> Peter Donahue
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "GARY STEEVES"
>> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca%3Cmailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>> Hi:
>>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of
>> time
>>> in
>>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally
>> they
>>> were
>>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program
>> went
>>> on.
>>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until
>> after
>>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for
>> liability
>>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a guide dog and do
>> what was
>>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there
>> was a
>>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not
>> do
>>> this
>>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about
>> ten
>>> days
>>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave
>> Bogart for
>>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to
>> take
>>> away
>>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that
>> we
>>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our
>> ability to
>>> be
>>> responsible in intregrating the dogs into our lifes.
>>> Gary
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Cindy Ray
>> <cindyray at gmail.com<mailto:cindyray at gmail.com<mailto:cindyray at gmail.com%3Cmailto:cindyray at gmail.com>>>
>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too, and
>>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>>> Cindy
>>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>> Hello again everyone,
>>>>> What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>>>> too high. Lower them because
>>>>> blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>>>> environments.
>>>>> After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>>>> alone with new
>>>>> dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>>>> We need to
>>>>> guide them every step of the way."
>>>>> People we just staged a demonstration last
>>>> Saturday of what is possible
>>>>> when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>>>> is shared by
>>>>> all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>>>> Daytona
>>>>> International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>>>> could have gone
>>>>> horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>>>> navigated the
>>>>> track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>>>> the blind. If
>>>>> he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>>>> dog users he
>>>>> never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>>>> accomplished when the
>>>>> blind have access to information. It would have been a
>>>> tremendous loss for
>>>>> us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>>>> until last
>>>>> Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>>>> thousands of
>>>>> people.
>>>>> I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>>>> lights for Mark's achievement
>>>>> yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>>>> training. If
>>>>> Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>>>> in guide dog
>>>>> training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>>>> work their
>>>>> dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>>>> be if a team
>>>>> can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>>>> during their
>>>>> training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>>>>> Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>>>> from people that on occasions
>>>>> criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>>>> users. How can we
>>>>> do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>>>> unwilling to allow the
>>>>> imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>>>> dished out by
>>>>> our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>>>> suggests a
>>>>> possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>>>> be they with
>>>>> training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>>>> last
>>>>> Saturday.
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "GARY STEEVES"
>> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca%3Cmailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> Hi Tracy:
>>>>> I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>>>> Bogart alone
>>>>> in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>>>> rules first by
>>>>> showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>>>> was right
>>>>> across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>>>> doing. I live in an
>>>>> apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>>>> him that he
>>>>> wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>>>> trusted me
>>>>> and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>>>> trying to do.
>>>>> Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>>>> or two but he
>>>>> was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>>>>> The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>>>> interested in
>>>>> checking out boys at the local coffee shop. It was
>>>> actually Bogart's
>>>>> brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>>>> bit with
>>>>> regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>>>>> I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>>>> that if the
>>>>> dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>>>> had to work at
>>>>> it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>>>>> Gary
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Tracy Carcione
>> <carcione at access.net<mailto:carcione at access.net<mailto:carcione at access.net%3Cmailto:carcione at access.net>>>
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> To:
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>>>>>> unfamiliar area,
>>>>>> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>>>>>> weeks. It
>>>>>> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>>>>>> and, until
>>>>>> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>>>>>> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>>>>>> should happen
>>>>>> in the following:
>>>>>> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>>>>>> class. People
>>>>>> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>>>>>> one woman
>>>>>> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>>>>>> where it
>>>>>> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>>>>>> go and
>>>>>> deal with the problem.
>>>>>> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>>>> in their
>>>>>> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>>>>>> and, if it
>>>>>> happens again, send them home. After all, they're in class
>>>>>> to learn how
>>>>>> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>>>> they go!
>>>>>> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>>>>>> cornerand have a brewski. But TSE is too far out in the
>>>>>> country for that. GDB
>>>>>> too, for that matter.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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