[nagdu] Informed choices? was FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
Lisa belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com
Sun Feb 6 19:42:31 UTC 2011
Rebecca, that's a good point. I think most people don't read legal
contracts thoroughly though, so I wouldn't chalk this up to just an issue of
someone not knowing what to look for or expect in a contract.
None of the ways that I'm thinking of, such as having the contract be signed
by a witness or having the person indicate they've read and understand the
terms of the agreement seem a bit like over kill to me.
I'm wondering why we have to sign a contract with a school anyway. I
honestly don't remember signing one with Katy, but I did with my first guide
dog. It was basically saying that I'd use the dog for mobility purposes and
that I wouldn't sell the equipment when he retired or something along those
lines. For Katy I signed a publicity release form giving the school
permission to use me in any PR they did. Someone could opt out of that if
they wanted and it wouldn't affect the person getting training or anything.
With both dogs, I signed a waver of liability
Otherwise, I'm not sure how you could really get someone to internalize some
of the stricter policies in some school contracts.
The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
machine...who knew ?
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Informed choices? was FIDELCO ownership rights and
other things.
>I wonder too if we have a disconnect between theory and reality. It's very
>easy to say "I'm fine with the school taking away my dog" when you haven't
>met that dog or ever worked with one before. You can't love and bond with
>something you've never met and enjoy something you've never experienced.
>Also, it's easy to say "Of course I'll use the dog" when you don't really
>know what that means and don't yet know that "using the dog" also means
>making sure it is out of the flow of foot traffic while guiding, and that
>it behaves appropriately.
> I remember I had a copy of Leader Dog's contract before each class I
> attended. I also remember that it was meaningless to me. I simply didn't
> understand and honestly each time for differing reasons, I didn't much
> care. I'd already decided I wanted a dog and that I wanted it to be from
> Leader Dogs. The only solution I've got is that contracts be avaiable well
> before a decision to attend a given school is made. I have no idea how you
> solve the emotional aspects.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Lisa belville
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:55 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Informed choices? was FIDELCO ownership rights and other
> things.
>
> I think what this issue has caused me to wonder is just how much about
> Fidelco's policies, or any guide dog school's policies, for that matter,
> are
> made public to potential attendees?
>
> Are there appeal procedures or conflict resolution processes in place to
> make any type of disagreement that could end in a dog being removed as
> fair
> as possible?
>
> The NFB is all about informed choice. So, rather than arguing about
> whether
> or not all schools should grant ownership or wrangling over the need for
> legislation, wouldn't it be more efficient to lobby to make it mandatory
> that all schools make public their contracts, whether they grant ownership
> or not? This way people have the opportunity to look these over and make
> a
> decision before even applying. This would allow those wanting outright
> ownership to automatically dismiss a school that didn't fit that
> requirement. Those interested in conditional ownership could see right
> away
> what conditions and stipulations apply at various schools and make their
> decision accordingly.
>
> Now I am presuming that all schools would be willing to come clean about
> their student contracts and offer these prior to attending class, either
> right after the application process or on their web site so people can
> read
> it before attending class or applying to the school in the first place. A
> school failing to provide this information, either voluntarily or upon
> request would send up red flags for me. For example, GDUI did a survey of
> guide dog schools asking about training, ownership policies, etc. There
> were a few schools who either didn't participate or who didn't answer
> these
> questions fully. If a program is completely above board, why wouldn't
> they
> want to make this information available?
>
> In this instance, if a person goes to a school knowing beforehand what the
> ownership policy is, and under what conditions the dog can be removed, how
> much of a right to complain do they have if the dog is removed and it's
> proven that the person violated the terms of the contract. That's how it
> works in the real world, so why not in this instance? The person made an
> informed choice, did they not?
>
> To me this would be a much more organized and open way to go about the
> process of choosing a school with an agreeable ownership policy.
>
> I am not trying to blame the victim in the Fidelco cases. I have no clue
> what's going on. I know personally of people who should have never gotten
> dogs or who do not use them once home from training. Under some schools'
> contracts, This is grounds for removal. If the person knew all of this,
> even with Fidelco not publically providing the information, then I'm still
> not sure the school is completely in the wrong here.
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
>
> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
> machine...who knew ?
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
>
>
>> Marion
>> Maybe issues like this should not be shared until they are resolved since
>> only a part of the information can be presented, just enough to make the
>> party of choice look bad. Once the issue is resolved the whole picture
>> can be shared.
>>
>> Again, what I was looking for was...
>> Could those individuals tell you or come on list themselves and say what
>> the situation is from their prospective?
>>
>> I guess we will have to wait for the legal battle to end.
>> Brenda
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/3/2011 1:59 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>> Brenda,
>>> I am not sure what you would like to know. The specifics are that
>>> Fidelco removed the dogs without cause and without explanation. Mr.
>>> Russman would only say that it was due to "safety reasons" but refused
>>> to
>>> give any further details. I agree that there is a great deal of
>>> vagueness. This is due to Fidelco's evasiveness. The only explanation
>>> they will offer is to "read section d of the agreement" that states
>>> Fidelco has the right to repossess the dog at their sole and absolute
>>> discretion. Pressing me for an explanation is unproductive, as I have
>>> none! Only Fidelco can give an explanation and they refuse to do so.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:26 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Could those individuals tell you or come on list themselves and say
>>>> what
>>>> the situation is from their prospective? There is a lot of vagueness
>>>> still.
>>>> Brenda
>>>>
>>>> On 2/3/2011 12:36 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>> I will only say that we have attempted to get Fidelco's side of the
>>>>> story and, in spite of a signed release of information, Mr. Russman
>>>>> refused to talk to us about it. As this message so astutely stated, it
>>>>> makes us wonder what they are hiding. A great deal, we have come to
>>>>> find out, as more consumer come forward with similar stories. If it
>>>>> were an isolated incident, I would question the details. As a pattern
>>>>> evolves and we find credible information with physical evidence, it
>>>>> supports our action.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:45 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>> Well said.
>>>>>> I have asked what the person who had her dog removed from Fidelco was
>>>>>> actually told with no response - makes me wonder. I do not think the
>>>>>> whole story has been relayed about the incidents at Leader either. I
>>>>>> find it amazing that a dog could be removed with little warning and
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> cause - something is missing OR at least it would be nice to hear
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> the school and the handler (both sides of the story) so an informed
>>>>>> opinion could be made about a certain school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe in the survey that is being prepared there could be an entry of
>>>>>> how many dogs have been repo'd by the school and the reason the
>>>>>> school
>>>>>> gave for the forced return.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another survey question would be what is the reason for your
>>>>>> ownership
>>>>>> policy? Why do you require a handler to wait two years before
>>>>>> awarding ownership?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/3/2011 11:04 AM, Bryan Brown wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The day after Marion posted the message about the woman who
>>>>>>> had their dog
>>>>>>> repossessed by FIDELCO for no reason... I received a call from a
>>>>>>> FIDELCO trainer. She was
>>>>>>> calling to find out if she could meet with me for a follow up visit.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> scheduled a time to meet with her on the seventeenth of February,
>>>>>>> since I am
>>>>>>> not in what you might say is FIDELCO's traditional service area this
>>>>>>> will be
>>>>>>> the first follow up visit that I have had. They have offered, but I
>>>>>>> haven't had any
>>>>>>> problems that I thought needed a trainers help with so I declined.
>>>>>>> Any time
>>>>>>> I have ever had an issue or question I just call out to FIDELCO and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> put right through to someone who can help. I've never had to request
>>>>>>> follow
>>>>>>> up, I guess I've been lucky and not had any issues as a working team
>>>>>>> that I couldn't deal with myself. I'd be comfortable if FIDELCO
>>>>>>> called and
>>>>>>> said hey we're five minutes from your house and we want to see your
>>>>>>> dog. That would be great, I don't have any reasons to be anything
>>>>>>> other than proud of my dog. They were however nice enough to give me
>>>>>>> more than two weeks notice and make sure that it worked with my
>>>>>>> schedule. I'm far from intimidated, in fact I'm
>>>>>>> excited, I know that I have nothing to worry about, my dog is
>>>>>>> healthy, he is in great shape , we are a great working team and I'll
>>>>>>> be proud to show
>>>>>>> off our teamwork to someone who knows how much it takes to develop
>>>>>>> that type
>>>>>>> of relationship with a dog. My only concern is that the trainer
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> not be
>>>>>>> able to stick around and have dinner with myself and my family.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's unfortunate that anyone would ever have their dog unjustly
>>>>>>> removed from
>>>>>>> them and I'm not sure how that would benefit the program, imagine
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> implications if a person could prove those allegations, for instance
>>>>>>> in front of a jury? Why aren't the people who have supposedly had
>>>>>>> their dogs removed
>>>>>>> making a public show of such an unjust action? I know if that
>>>>>>> happened to me
>>>>>>> I'd be the first to call the sheriff, my vet, my attorney and the
>>>>>>> media, I'd make a
>>>>>>> huge stink of it, but I am confident that I have done nothing to
>>>>>>> bring such
>>>>>>> action on myself. , maybe the parties in question are not quite so
>>>>>>> confident? Is it possible that the inflammatory comments that Marion
>>>>>>> has made about FIDELCO and Mr. Russman are rooted in limited
>>>>>>> information and Mr. Russman's reservations to bow down to the big
>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>> NFB?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as far as I know... I own Tarik, do I think I have that right, "yes"
>>>>>>> at this
>>>>>>> point after five years it would be cruel to remove him from me, I am
>>>>>>> as much
>>>>>>> his life as he is mine. Do I think I deserved to own him upon
>>>>>>> graduation, my
>>>>>>> answer is no. I feel as though having a dog is a wonderful privilege
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> case of a FIDELCO dog it's a 45,000 dollar privilege and I am the
>>>>>>> custodian of that privilege. It is my responsibility to hold up my
>>>>>>> end of
>>>>>>> the bargain. I knew what it was when I got the dog and I was
>>>>>>> confident in my
>>>>>>> ability to hold up my end of the bargain throughout his working
>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>> why I signed my name on the line.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think making negative comments about any given program in a public
>>>>>>> forum
>>>>>>> without first hand experience is wrong and only serves to tarnish
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> program. If people have complaints so be it, but unless the
>>>>>>> complaints are coming directly from the people making them, the
>>>>>>> information has probably been spun and is most certainly one sided.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure why anyone sees fit to vilify any guide dog program.
>>>>>>> all the people that work so hard to provide us with these wonderful
>>>>>>> animals aren't doing it for the money. I'm fairly sure that the
>>>>>>> puppy
>>>>>>> raisers aren't pulling down huge salaries, and that the trainers
>>>>>>> surely aren't earning six figures, I see that they are doing it
>>>>>>> because they are genuinely good people, and that they either have a
>>>>>>> passion for helping, or dogs, or both!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why is it that I see such a militant attitude with so much of the
>>>>>>> NFB? I know it's a strong advocacy group, but I personally don't
>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>> to be advocated for by a group that comes across so negatively.
>>>>>>> We've
>>>>>>> become a society of victims, everything is always somebody else's
>>>>>>> fault and there is always someone out to get you, I see it in
>>>>>>> strangers and people I know and love. People have to start standing
>>>>>>> up for themselves again and taking responsibility for their own
>>>>>>> actions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bryan
>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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