[nagdu] Informed choices? was FIDELCO ownership rights andother things.
solsticesinger
solsticesinger at gmail.com
Mon Feb 7 04:22:45 UTC 2011
I know I signed the GDF contract when I went to get Caroline, and that was
in June of 2005. As far as I know, people are still required to sign them.
Shannon and Caroline
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa belville" <missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Informed choices? was FIDELCO ownership rights andother
things.
> Rebecca, that's a good point. I think most people don't read legal
> contracts thoroughly though, so I wouldn't chalk this up to just an issue
> of someone not knowing what to look for or expect in a contract.
>
> None of the ways that I'm thinking of, such as having the contract be
> signed by a witness or having the person indicate they've read and
> understand the terms of the agreement seem a bit like over kill to me.
>
> I'm wondering why we have to sign a contract with a school anyway. I
> honestly don't remember signing one with Katy, but I did with my first
> guide dog. It was basically saying that I'd use the dog for mobility
> purposes and that I wouldn't sell the equipment when he retired or
> something along those lines. For Katy I signed a publicity release form
> giving the school permission to use me in any PR they did. Someone could
> opt out of that if they wanted and it wouldn't affect the person getting
> training or anything.
>
> With both dogs, I signed a waver of liability
>
> Otherwise, I'm not sure how you could really get someone to internalize
> some of the stricter policies in some school contracts.
>
> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
> machine...who knew ?
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Informed choices? was FIDELCO ownership rights and
> other things.
>
>
>>I wonder too if we have a disconnect between theory and reality. It's very
>>easy to say "I'm fine with the school taking away my dog" when you haven't
>>met that dog or ever worked with one before. You can't love and bond with
>>something you've never met and enjoy something you've never experienced.
>>Also, it's easy to say "Of course I'll use the dog" when you don't really
>>know what that means and don't yet know that "using the dog" also means
>>making sure it is out of the flow of foot traffic while guiding, and that
>>it behaves appropriately.
>> I remember I had a copy of Leader Dog's contract before each class I
>> attended. I also remember that it was meaningless to me. I simply didn't
>> understand and honestly each time for differing reasons, I didn't much
>> care. I'd already decided I wanted a dog and that I wanted it to be from
>> Leader Dogs. The only solution I've got is that contracts be avaiable
>> well before a decision to attend a given school is made. I have no idea
>> how you solve the emotional aspects.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Lisa belville
>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:55 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: [nagdu] Informed choices? was FIDELCO ownership rights and other
>> things.
>>
>> I think what this issue has caused me to wonder is just how much about
>> Fidelco's policies, or any guide dog school's policies, for that matter,
>> are
>> made public to potential attendees?
>>
>> Are there appeal procedures or conflict resolution processes in place to
>> make any type of disagreement that could end in a dog being removed as
>> fair
>> as possible?
>>
>> The NFB is all about informed choice. So, rather than arguing about
>> whether
>> or not all schools should grant ownership or wrangling over the need for
>> legislation, wouldn't it be more efficient to lobby to make it mandatory
>> that all schools make public their contracts, whether they grant
>> ownership
>> or not? This way people have the opportunity to look these over and
>> make a
>> decision before even applying. This would allow those wanting outright
>> ownership to automatically dismiss a school that didn't fit that
>> requirement. Those interested in conditional ownership could see right
>> away
>> what conditions and stipulations apply at various schools and make their
>> decision accordingly.
>>
>> Now I am presuming that all schools would be willing to come clean about
>> their student contracts and offer these prior to attending class, either
>> right after the application process or on their web site so people can
>> read
>> it before attending class or applying to the school in the first place.
>> A
>> school failing to provide this information, either voluntarily or upon
>> request would send up red flags for me. For example, GDUI did a survey
>> of
>> guide dog schools asking about training, ownership policies, etc. There
>> were a few schools who either didn't participate or who didn't answer
>> these
>> questions fully. If a program is completely above board, why wouldn't
>> they
>> want to make this information available?
>>
>> In this instance, if a person goes to a school knowing beforehand what
>> the
>> ownership policy is, and under what conditions the dog can be removed,
>> how
>> much of a right to complain do they have if the dog is removed and it's
>> proven that the person violated the terms of the contract. That's how it
>> works in the real world, so why not in this instance? The person made an
>> informed choice, did they not?
>>
>> To me this would be a much more organized and open way to go about the
>> process of choosing a school with an agreeable ownership policy.
>>
>> I am not trying to blame the victim in the Fidelco cases. I have no clue
>> what's going on. I know personally of people who should have never
>> gotten
>> dogs or who do not use them once home from training. Under some schools'
>> contracts, This is grounds for removal. If the person knew all of this,
>> even with Fidelco not publically providing the information, then I'm
>> still
>> not sure the school is completely in the wrong here.
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>> machine...who knew ?
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
>>
>>
>>> Marion
>>> Maybe issues like this should not be shared until they are resolved
>>> since
>>> only a part of the information can be presented, just enough to make the
>>> party of choice look bad. Once the issue is resolved the whole picture
>>> can be shared.
>>>
>>> Again, what I was looking for was...
>>> Could those individuals tell you or come on list themselves and say what
>>> the situation is from their prospective?
>>>
>>> I guess we will have to wait for the legal battle to end.
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/3/2011 1:59 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>> Brenda,
>>>> I am not sure what you would like to know. The specifics are that
>>>> Fidelco removed the dogs without cause and without explanation. Mr.
>>>> Russman would only say that it was due to "safety reasons" but refused
>>>> to
>>>> give any further details. I agree that there is a great deal of
>>>> vagueness. This is due to Fidelco's evasiveness. The only explanation
>>>> they will offer is to "read section d of the agreement" that states
>>>> Fidelco has the right to repossess the dog at their sole and absolute
>>>> discretion. Pressing me for an explanation is unproductive, as I have
>>>> none! Only Fidelco can give an explanation and they refuse to do so.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:26 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Could those individuals tell you or come on list themselves and say
>>>>> what
>>>>> the situation is from their prospective? There is a lot of vagueness
>>>>> still.
>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/3/2011 12:36 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> I will only say that we have attempted to get Fidelco's side of the
>>>>>> story and, in spite of a signed release of information, Mr. Russman
>>>>>> refused to talk to us about it. As this message so astutely stated,
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> makes us wonder what they are hiding. A great deal, we have come to
>>>>>> find out, as more consumer come forward with similar stories. If it
>>>>>> were an isolated incident, I would question the details. As a pattern
>>>>>> evolves and we find credible information with physical evidence, it
>>>>>> supports our action.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:45 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>> Well said.
>>>>>>> I have asked what the person who had her dog removed from Fidelco
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> actually told with no response - makes me wonder. I do not think
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> whole story has been relayed about the incidents at Leader either.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> find it amazing that a dog could be removed with little warning and
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> cause - something is missing OR at least it would be nice to hear
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the school and the handler (both sides of the story) so an informed
>>>>>>> opinion could be made about a certain school.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe in the survey that is being prepared there could be an entry
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> how many dogs have been repo'd by the school and the reason the
>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>> gave for the forced return.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another survey question would be what is the reason for your
>>>>>>> ownership
>>>>>>> policy? Why do you require a handler to wait two years before
>>>>>>> awarding ownership?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/3/2011 11:04 AM, Bryan Brown wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The day after Marion posted the message about the woman
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> had their dog
>>>>>>>> repossessed by FIDELCO for no reason... I received a call from a
>>>>>>>> FIDELCO trainer. She was
>>>>>>>> calling to find out if she could meet with me for a follow up
>>>>>>>> visit.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> scheduled a time to meet with her on the seventeenth of February,
>>>>>>>> since I am
>>>>>>>> not in what you might say is FIDELCO's traditional service area
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> will be
>>>>>>>> the first follow up visit that I have had. They have offered, but
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> haven't had any
>>>>>>>> problems that I thought needed a trainers help with so I declined.
>>>>>>>> Any time
>>>>>>>> I have ever had an issue or question I just call out to FIDELCO and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> put right through to someone who can help. I've never had to
>>>>>>>> request
>>>>>>>> follow
>>>>>>>> up, I guess I've been lucky and not had any issues as a working
>>>>>>>> team
>>>>>>>> that I couldn't deal with myself. I'd be comfortable if FIDELCO
>>>>>>>> called and
>>>>>>>> said hey we're five minutes from your house and we want to see your
>>>>>>>> dog. That would be great, I don't have any reasons to be anything
>>>>>>>> other than proud of my dog. They were however nice enough to give
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> more than two weeks notice and make sure that it worked with my
>>>>>>>> schedule. I'm far from intimidated, in fact I'm
>>>>>>>> excited, I know that I have nothing to worry about, my dog is
>>>>>>>> healthy, he is in great shape , we are a great working team and
>>>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>>>> be proud to show
>>>>>>>> off our teamwork to someone who knows how much it takes to develop
>>>>>>>> that type
>>>>>>>> of relationship with a dog. My only concern is that the trainer
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>> not be
>>>>>>>> able to stick around and have dinner with myself and my family.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's unfortunate that anyone would ever have their dog unjustly
>>>>>>>> removed from
>>>>>>>> them and I'm not sure how that would benefit the program, imagine
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> implications if a person could prove those allegations, for
>>>>>>>> instance
>>>>>>>> in front of a jury? Why aren't the people who have supposedly had
>>>>>>>> their dogs removed
>>>>>>>> making a public show of such an unjust action? I know if that
>>>>>>>> happened to me
>>>>>>>> I'd be the first to call the sheriff, my vet, my attorney and the
>>>>>>>> media, I'd make a
>>>>>>>> huge stink of it, but I am confident that I have done nothing to
>>>>>>>> bring such
>>>>>>>> action on myself. , maybe the parties in question are not quite so
>>>>>>>> confident? Is it possible that the inflammatory comments that
>>>>>>>> Marion
>>>>>>>> has made about FIDELCO and Mr. Russman are rooted in limited
>>>>>>>> information and Mr. Russman's reservations to bow down to the big
>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>> NFB?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as far as I know... I own Tarik, do I think I have that right,
>>>>>>>> "yes"
>>>>>>>> at this
>>>>>>>> point after five years it would be cruel to remove him from me, I
>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>> as much
>>>>>>>> his life as he is mine. Do I think I deserved to own him upon
>>>>>>>> graduation, my
>>>>>>>> answer is no. I feel as though having a dog is a wonderful
>>>>>>>> privilege
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> case of a FIDELCO dog it's a 45,000 dollar privilege and I am the
>>>>>>>> custodian of that privilege. It is my responsibility to hold up my
>>>>>>>> end of
>>>>>>>> the bargain. I knew what it was when I got the dog and I was
>>>>>>>> confident in my
>>>>>>>> ability to hold up my end of the bargain throughout his working
>>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>>> why I signed my name on the line.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think making negative comments about any given program in a
>>>>>>>> public
>>>>>>>> forum
>>>>>>>> without first hand experience is wrong and only serves to tarnish
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> program. If people have complaints so be it, but unless the
>>>>>>>> complaints are coming directly from the people making them, the
>>>>>>>> information has probably been spun and is most certainly one sided.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure why anyone sees fit to vilify any guide dog program.
>>>>>>>> all the people that work so hard to provide us with these wonderful
>>>>>>>> animals aren't doing it for the money. I'm fairly sure that the
>>>>>>>> puppy
>>>>>>>> raisers aren't pulling down huge salaries, and that the trainers
>>>>>>>> surely aren't earning six figures, I see that they are doing it
>>>>>>>> because they are genuinely good people, and that they either have a
>>>>>>>> passion for helping, or dogs, or both!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why is it that I see such a militant attitude with so much of the
>>>>>>>> NFB? I know it's a strong advocacy group, but I personally don't
>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>> to be advocated for by a group that comes across so negatively.
>>>>>>>> We've
>>>>>>>> become a society of victims, everything is always somebody else's
>>>>>>>> fault and there is always someone out to get you, I see it in
>>>>>>>> strangers and people I know and love. People have to start standing
>>>>>>>> up for themselves again and taking responsibility for their own
>>>>>>>> actions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bryan
>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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