[nagdu] Cruel training methods

Mon Jan 10 14:16:38 UTC 2011

Cruel Training Methods
updated: Jan 09, 2011, 1:26 PM 
Santa Barbara Edhat, California
 <http://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?nid=46501>
http://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?nid=46501
By Edhat Subscriber 

I was really disturbed yesterday (Saturday) when my son and I saw
a beautiful little German shepherd inside Trader Joe's on De la
Vina about 12:30. We smiled and commented on the sweet, very
submissive dog, wearing a guide-dog harness and choke collar. It
turned its eyes toward us and the woman with it began repeated
jerking very hard on the choke collar and yelling NO! to it. We
didn't say anything about that but told her what a beautiful dog
she had and asked how old it was. She said "Two! And it's in
training!" and yelled NO! at the dog again, jerking the choke
violently, and walking off. I said to my son "Bummer for that
dog" quietly and at that moment the woman and another across the
way that seemed to be with her - both at least 15 feet away
inside the busy store began yelling something like "Mind your own
business!". My son and I could not get the look of that dog's
eyes out of our minds all day.

Is there a local group that trains seeing eye dogs? I would like
to lodge a complaint with them. This was literally animal cruelty
- nothing close to proper animal training methods. The women had
obviously had people comment negatively before as they were very
hostile.

COMMENT 134828
 2011-01-09 01:32 PM

They're trying to train the dog to ignore people and do its job,
and you were interfering. I would have told you off worse than
that if I were the trainer. 

 ROGER DODGER
 2011-01-09 01:37 PM

I would call animal control. There's no reason to abusivly train
a dog like that. 

 COMMENT 134834
 2011-01-09 01:39 PM

I understand how you feel. However this dog will one day be a
guardian and may save a life. Saying this, I wish the training
could be carried out away from well meaning animal lovers who
will be naturally disturbed by what they perceive to be a cruel
way to train a young and obviously perplexed animal, whose
natural instinct is to be a friend to all. 

 COMMENT 134836P
 2011-01-09 01:43 PM

Negative reinforcement "training" is so disturbing to see. I wish
anyone considering owning a dog would watch The Dog Whisperer
shows first. This lady needs help. Mental help. Not a watch/guide
dog help. I'm sorry I don't have info for the OP about who to
call to report and file a claim with. I hope someone posts that
info. 

 COMMENT 134838P
 2011-01-09 01:59 PM

This is the contact information to report this. That is in no way
an approved method of training for guide dogs.

Guide Dogs of America
13445 Glenoaks Boulevard
Sylmar, CA 91342

Phone: (818) 362-5834
Fax: (818) 362-6870
Email:  <mailto:mail at guidedogsofamerica.org>
mail at guidedogsofamerica.org 

 COMMENT 134840P
 2011-01-09 02:02 PM

It is difficult to train a dog in public because many folks think
they are experts or have a different opinion what is
acceptable/necessary; my grandmother thinks it is cruel that I
don't let my dog eat at the table! I feel for anyone who has to
hear about it from strangers who know nothing about the dog or
situation. If a guide dog looks at you instead of into the
cross-walk, someone could die. The harness/cape is there not just
to alert business owners that the dog is allowed inside, but also
so the general public will leave it and its handler alone. This
is not a fairy tale world where everything can be accomplished
with positive reinforcement (with people or dogs), and while I
didn't witness this particular event I have seen professionals
get the same kind of flak and accusations of "cruelty" for
totally reasonable methods. Regardless of how you feel about what
you saw, working dogs lead some of the best and most well
adjusted dog lives; if you really want to make a difference for a
dog, there are plenty at the shelter that actually need your
intervention . . . 

 COMMENT 134845
 2011-01-09 02:06 PM

Watch a video and see how wild dogs "train" each other. Training
any service dog is a noble effort and requires very strict
rules...You wouldn't want a seeing eye dog being distracted by a
squirrel and running across a busy street? If you don't know what
you are talking about, you should probably mind your own
business. 

 COMMENT 134853
 2011-01-09 02:30 PM

No, she shouldn't have been rude about it, but a choke chain
(technically, its a nip collar) is to be used with a strong jerk.
This is probably what you interrupted as a violent pull. As a dog
trainer for many years, this is not particularly cruel to the
animal, it just seems like it to us humans, as we are respond
best to compassion.

Dogs are used to having a pack leader, and if they don't they
become dominant. A guide dog can't be demonstrating dominant
behavior, as it will not follow instructions. An example of this
that you probably see lots of is dogs that go uncontrollably
barking at surroundings or run up to greet everything around
them. Although some people may enjoy or tolerate this behavior,
it works against having a trained dog. 

If you were told not to pet the dog, you should be respectful of
that. Not all creatures are human, dogs have very different
instincts than us. 

 COMMENT 134869P
 2011-01-09 03:22 PM

844: good info, thanks.

I'm sure the service dog trainer knows what they are doing. A
casual observer probably thinks otherwise. On the other hand, you
should NEVER attempt to contact a trainer with a dog in training.
I think that's well understood, or at least it should be. I guess
the original poster needs to be trained about this :-) 

 COMMENT 134882P
 2011-01-09 04:13 PM

I don't think that yelling "No!" at a dog (or anything) is the
proper way to train. Nor is yelling in a store, "Mind your own
business." In effect, this is our business since the reputable
training facilities are tax deductible. 

Never attempt to contact the person doing the training? That's
bizarre - and not at all my experience. The woman should have
paused to explain politely what the situation was. I, too, feel
sorry for that dog --- as well as feeling sorry for anyone who
will have it subsequently. I hope the observing/reporting person
does contact the Guide Dog organization. 

 COMMENT 134888
 2011-01-09 04:28 PM

Once again, the over-anthropomorphizing tendencies of the Edhat
community to anything animal-related give one serious pause.

Are you SURE that this dog was not working, aiding someone who is
in fact visually impaired??

Properly-trained guide dogs can mean life or death for their
owners. Your interference was neither warranted nor needed. Show
some respect. Yes, there are animals who are "working" and unless
you're a PETA-type extremist, you need to accept this reality and
indeed "mind your own business" in such situations! 

 COMMENT 134903
 2011-01-09 05:44 PM

882P: how else are you going to teach your dog what is not good
behavior besides telling them no?! if you don't, you're going to
end up with a misbehaved out of control animal. seriously. 

 COMMENT 134915
 2011-01-09 06:31 PM

Seems like a dog training class I took with Parks and Rec told us
the first thing to buy was a choke collar and the proper way to
use it in dog training. A quick jerk which then is a quick
release was the technique as I recall. It did get the dogs
attention and one only needs to use it a few times because dogs
do learn quickly ...... and pretty non-verbally at first.
Connection a command to the physical restraint was part of the
early training process. 

 COMMENT 134924P
 2011-01-09 06:58 PM

I considered raising and training a puppy to be a guide dog. One
of the prerequisites is to attend several group sessions with
trainers and their puppies. I soon realized I could not be as
strict with a puppy as required, at least in the settings I
observed ... 

 COMMENT 134930P
 2011-01-09 07:24 PM

It's not over-anthrophomorphising (ten dollar word alert) to be
concerned for the welfare of an animal.

Even if this dog is a working breed, doing it's job, basic
humanity still applies.
Not to mention that anyone who knows anything about dogs realizes
that this approach will get you the opposite of what you want and
you'll end up with deeper troubles later on with the dog. If you
don't understand that, you're really not understanding dogs. Call
if what you want. 

 COMMENT 134937
 2011-01-09 07:44 PM

@930P Actually, over-anthropomorphizing is exactly what it is
when one doesn't comprehend this basic distinction between a
visually-impaired human and an animal doing "it's" [sic]
(grammatically-challenged alert) job in the context of its very
specialized training. 

 COMMENT 134940
 2011-01-09 07:50 PM

Basic humanity applies to dog training? What a perfect example of
anthrophomorphising! 

 COMMENT 134944P
 2011-01-09 08:02 PM

You can make fun all your want, but a the end of the day, I have
a very well behaved dog and I make no apologies for treating him
with respect and taking the time to learn about dogs instead of
make fun of people who care about their well being. 

 COMMENT 134949P
 2011-01-09 08:57 PM

I trained my dogs with a choke collar and had happy dogs. I also
yell NO at my dogs. It does get their attention. I have actually
yelled NO at my child. However, if the OP thought she was
observing abusive behavior, then a call to the appropriate
training organizations (probably printed on the dogs vest)
expressing concern might be in order. If a particular trainer has
too many complaints, then maybe they are abusive. However, I
would never try to speak to someone who was actively training a
service dog. I might ask questions when they are being socialized
or not working/training. I would be interested in hearing how
some people raised their children using ONLY positive
reinforcement and NO negative consequences. 

 DAVID A. PRITCHETT
 2011-01-09 09:16 PM

This is how dog training happens. We could post comments about
how dogs behave when they are not trained effectively. 

 COMMENT 134953P
 2011-01-09 10:01 PM

Dogs in the wild are even more aggressive to their mates when
they establish order in the pack. It may have been extreme to
you, but chances are this person knew what they were doing.

Disclaimer: This comment was carefully written as to avoid any
hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia. 

'nuff said. 

 COMMENT 134954P
 2011-01-09 10:02 PM

Dogs aren't children. Positive reinforcement works perfectly well
with dogs. Humans not so much. You can tell from this very thread
that most humans crave negative attention, but not so dogs. 

Now who is in an anthropomorphic tailspin? 

 COMMENT 134955P
 2011-01-09 10:07 PM

Raising human children has nothing to do with training a service
dog. 

 COMMENT 134958P
 2011-01-09 10:15 PM

132953P, dogs in the wild have completely different social
communication with each other than domestic dogs. What they do
with each other in the wild has no bearing on how we should train
them. We're people. They communicate and understand us in a
totally different way than they do each other. We don't speak the
same language. It's our job to learn to speak their language in a
way they can understand, not vice versa. A person being
aggressive with a dog never knows what they are doing. 

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