[nagdu] Cruel training methods

Mon Jan 10 14:54:26 UTC 2011

This is really too bad.  I don't think the trainer should have been so brusk 
in her demeanor, meaning that shouting"no" in the store was probably not 
making a good impression, but then again I've said "no" louder than was 
probably necessary before.   I wonder if the account of the original poster 
is actually what people see when they observe someone training a service dog 
in public?  Are people that prone to over reacting?

Julie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 8:16 AM
Subject: [nagdu] Cruel training methods

> Cruel Training Methods
> updated: Jan 09, 2011, 1:26 PM
> Santa Barbara Edhat, California
> <http://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?nid=46501>
> http://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?nid=46501
> By Edhat Subscriber
>
> I was really disturbed yesterday (Saturday) when my son and I saw
> a beautiful little German shepherd inside Trader Joe's on De la
> Vina about 12:30. We smiled and commented on the sweet, very
> submissive dog, wearing a guide-dog harness and choke collar. It
> turned its eyes toward us and the woman with it began repeated
> jerking very hard on the choke collar and yelling NO! to it. We
> didn't say anything about that but told her what a beautiful dog
> she had and asked how old it was. She said "Two! And it's in
> training!" and yelled NO! at the dog again, jerking the choke
> violently, and walking off. I said to my son "Bummer for that
> dog" quietly and at that moment the woman and another across the
> way that seemed to be with her - both at least 15 feet away
> inside the busy store began yelling something like "Mind your own
> business!". My son and I could not get the look of that dog's
> eyes out of our minds all day.
>
> Is there a local group that trains seeing eye dogs? I would like
> to lodge a complaint with them. This was literally animal cruelty
> - nothing close to proper animal training methods. The women had
> obviously had people comment negatively before as they were very
> hostile.
>
> COMMENT 134828
> 2011-01-09 01:32 PM
>
> They're trying to train the dog to ignore people and do its job,
> and you were interfering. I would have told you off worse than
> that if I were the trainer.
>
>
> ROGER DODGER
> 2011-01-09 01:37 PM
>
> I would call animal control. There's no reason to abusivly train
> a dog like that.
>
>
> COMMENT 134834
> 2011-01-09 01:39 PM
>
> I understand how you feel. However this dog will one day be a
> guardian and may save a life. Saying this, I wish the training
> could be carried out away from well meaning animal lovers who
> will be naturally disturbed by what they perceive to be a cruel
> way to train a young and obviously perplexed animal, whose
> natural instinct is to be a friend to all.
>
>
> COMMENT 134836P
> 2011-01-09 01:43 PM
>
> Negative reinforcement "training" is so disturbing to see. I wish
> anyone considering owning a dog would watch The Dog Whisperer
> shows first. This lady needs help. Mental help. Not a watch/guide
> dog help. I'm sorry I don't have info for the OP about who to
> call to report and file a claim with. I hope someone posts that
> info.
>
>
> COMMENT 134838P
> 2011-01-09 01:59 PM
>
> This is the contact information to report this. That is in no way
> an approved method of training for guide dogs.
>
>
> Guide Dogs of America
> 13445 Glenoaks Boulevard
> Sylmar, CA 91342
>
>
> Phone: (818) 362-5834
> Fax: (818) 362-6870
> Email:  <mailto:mail at guidedogsofamerica.org>
> mail at guidedogsofamerica.org
>
>
> COMMENT 134840P
> 2011-01-09 02:02 PM
>
> It is difficult to train a dog in public because many folks think
> they are experts or have a different opinion what is
> acceptable/necessary; my grandmother thinks it is cruel that I
> don't let my dog eat at the table! I feel for anyone who has to
> hear about it from strangers who know nothing about the dog or
> situation. If a guide dog looks at you instead of into the
> cross-walk, someone could die. The harness/cape is there not just
> to alert business owners that the dog is allowed inside, but also
> so the general public will leave it and its handler alone. This
> is not a fairy tale world where everything can be accomplished
> with positive reinforcement (with people or dogs), and while I
> didn't witness this particular event I have seen professionals
> get the same kind of flak and accusations of "cruelty" for
> totally reasonable methods. Regardless of how you feel about what
> you saw, working dogs lead some of the best and most well
> adjusted dog lives; if you really want to make a difference for a
> dog, there are plenty at the shelter that actually need your
> intervention . . .
>
>
> COMMENT 134845
> 2011-01-09 02:06 PM
>
> Watch a video and see how wild dogs "train" each other. Training
> any service dog is a noble effort and requires very strict
> rules...You wouldn't want a seeing eye dog being distracted by a
> squirrel and running across a busy street? If you don't know what
> you are talking about, you should probably mind your own
> business.
>
>
> COMMENT 134853
> 2011-01-09 02:30 PM
>
> No, she shouldn't have been rude about it, but a choke chain
> (technically, its a nip collar) is to be used with a strong jerk.
> This is probably what you interrupted as a violent pull. As a dog
> trainer for many years, this is not particularly cruel to the
> animal, it just seems like it to us humans, as we are respond
> best to compassion.
>
>
> Dogs are used to having a pack leader, and if they don't they
> become dominant. A guide dog can't be demonstrating dominant
> behavior, as it will not follow instructions. An example of this
> that you probably see lots of is dogs that go uncontrollably
> barking at surroundings or run up to greet everything around
> them. Although some people may enjoy or tolerate this behavior,
> it works against having a trained dog.
>
> If you were told not to pet the dog, you should be respectful of
> that. Not all creatures are human, dogs have very different
> instincts than us.
>
>
> COMMENT 134869P
> 2011-01-09 03:22 PM
>
> 844: good info, thanks.
>
>
> I'm sure the service dog trainer knows what they are doing. A
> casual observer probably thinks otherwise. On the other hand, you
> should NEVER attempt to contact a trainer with a dog in training.
> I think that's well understood, or at least it should be. I guess
> the original poster needs to be trained about this :-)
>
>
> COMMENT 134882P
> 2011-01-09 04:13 PM
>
> I don't think that yelling "No!" at a dog (or anything) is the
> proper way to train. Nor is yelling in a store, "Mind your own
> business." In effect, this is our business since the reputable
> training facilities are tax deductible.
>
> Never attempt to contact the person doing the training? That's
> bizarre - and not at all my experience. The woman should have
> paused to explain politely what the situation was. I, too, feel
> sorry for that dog --- as well as feeling sorry for anyone who
> will have it subsequently. I hope the observing/reporting person
> does contact the Guide Dog organization.
>
>
> COMMENT 134888
> 2011-01-09 04:28 PM
>
> Once again, the over-anthropomorphizing tendencies of the Edhat
> community to anything animal-related give one serious pause.
>
>
> Are you SURE that this dog was not working, aiding someone who is
> in fact visually impaired??
>
>
> Properly-trained guide dogs can mean life or death for their
> owners. Your interference was neither warranted nor needed. Show
> some respect. Yes, there are animals who are "working" and unless
> you're a PETA-type extremist, you need to accept this reality and
> indeed "mind your own business" in such situations!
>
>
> COMMENT 134903
> 2011-01-09 05:44 PM
>
> 882P: how else are you going to teach your dog what is not good
> behavior besides telling them no?! if you don't, you're going to
> end up with a misbehaved out of control animal. seriously.
>
>
> COMMENT 134915
> 2011-01-09 06:31 PM
>
> Seems like a dog training class I took with Parks and Rec told us
> the first thing to buy was a choke collar and the proper way to
> use it in dog training. A quick jerk which then is a quick
> release was the technique as I recall. It did get the dogs
> attention and one only needs to use it a few times because dogs
> do learn quickly ...... and pretty non-verbally at first.
> Connection a command to the physical restraint was part of the
> early training process.
>
>
> COMMENT 134924P
> 2011-01-09 06:58 PM
>
> I considered raising and training a puppy to be a guide dog. One
> of the prerequisites is to attend several group sessions with
> trainers and their puppies. I soon realized I could not be as
> strict with a puppy as required, at least in the settings I
> observed ...
>
>
> COMMENT 134930P
> 2011-01-09 07:24 PM
>
> It's not over-anthrophomorphising (ten dollar word alert) to be
> concerned for the welfare of an animal.
>
>
> Even if this dog is a working breed, doing it's job, basic
> humanity still applies.
> Not to mention that anyone who knows anything about dogs realizes
> that this approach will get you the opposite of what you want and
> you'll end up with deeper troubles later on with the dog. If you
> don't understand that, you're really not understanding dogs. Call
> if what you want.
>
>
> COMMENT 134937
> 2011-01-09 07:44 PM
>
> @930P Actually, over-anthropomorphizing is exactly what it is
> when one doesn't comprehend this basic distinction between a
> visually-impaired human and an animal doing "it's" [sic]
> (grammatically-challenged alert) job in the context of its very
> specialized training.
>
>
> COMMENT 134940
> 2011-01-09 07:50 PM
>
> Basic humanity applies to dog training? What a perfect example of
> anthrophomorphising!
>
>
> COMMENT 134944P
> 2011-01-09 08:02 PM
>
> You can make fun all your want, but a the end of the day, I have
> a very well behaved dog and I make no apologies for treating him
> with respect and taking the time to learn about dogs instead of
> make fun of people who care about their well being.
>
>
> COMMENT 134949P
> 2011-01-09 08:57 PM
>
> I trained my dogs with a choke collar and had happy dogs. I also
> yell NO at my dogs. It does get their attention. I have actually
> yelled NO at my child. However, if the OP thought she was
> observing abusive behavior, then a call to the appropriate
> training organizations (probably printed on the dogs vest)
> expressing concern might be in order. If a particular trainer has
> too many complaints, then maybe they are abusive. However, I
> would never try to speak to someone who was actively training a
> service dog. I might ask questions when they are being socialized
> or not working/training. I would be interested in hearing how
> some people raised their children using ONLY positive
> reinforcement and NO negative consequences.
>
>
> DAVID A. PRITCHETT
> 2011-01-09 09:16 PM
>
> This is how dog training happens. We could post comments about
> how dogs behave when they are not trained effectively.
>
>
> COMMENT 134953P
> 2011-01-09 10:01 PM
>
> Dogs in the wild are even more aggressive to their mates when
> they establish order in the pack. It may have been extreme to
> you, but chances are this person knew what they were doing.
>
>
> Disclaimer: This comment was carefully written as to avoid any
> hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia.
>
> 'nuff said.
>
>
> COMMENT 134954P
> 2011-01-09 10:02 PM
>
> Dogs aren't children. Positive reinforcement works perfectly well
> with dogs. Humans not so much. You can tell from this very thread
> that most humans crave negative attention, but not so dogs.
>
> Now who is in an anthropomorphic tailspin?
>
>
> COMMENT 134955P
> 2011-01-09 10:07 PM
>
> Raising human children has nothing to do with training a service
> dog.
>
>
> COMMENT 134958P
> 2011-01-09 10:15 PM
>
> 132953P, dogs in the wild have completely different social
> communication with each other than domestic dogs. What they do
> with each other in the wild has no bearing on how we should train
> them. We're people. They communicate and understand us in a
> totally different way than they do each other. We don't speak the
> same language. It's our job to learn to speak their language in a
> way they can understand, not vice versa. A person being
> aggressive with a dog never knows what they are doing.
>
>
>
>
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