[nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

Julie J julielj at neb.rr.com
Sun Jan 30 23:27:29 UTC 2011


Jordan,

Aren't you also being subjective when you say "handled properly"?

Seems to me that just like the weather, there is a pretty wide range of what 
is considered acceptable among guide dog handlers.

Julie


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights


>I never said you shouldn't.  What is your definition of extreme? You are
> being subjective.  If you get a dog an live in places where it does get
> really hot or really cold.  It's the user's discrescion.
> Jordan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marsha Drenth
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:36 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
> Jordan,
>
> Again making assumptions you have no reason to make. I am originally from
> Texas. Dallas texas. Was born, grew up, had a family and lived in various
> parts of Texas for 30 plus years. I know what the weather is like in Tx 
> and
> LA right now. I also know what the weather is like in the summer with the
> heat indexes. I have lived in PA for two years now. I have also lived in
> Baltimore MD. So now you know that I have dealt with all those different
> types of weather, I still stand by that in extreme cold and extreme heat 
> you
> should not work a dog.
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
> ----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jordan Gallacher
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 5:14 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
> You have never been down here have you?  Let me just say this.  It is a 
> warm
> year and has been in the 60's for a while.  Normally it would be somewhere
> around 32 to 34 degrees this time of year, and being from where I am from
> origionally, I am used to colder.
> Jordan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marsha Drenth
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:29 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
> Your in LA, and the weather is much much different from say Montana or PA,
> or Maine, where the snowy months can last 4 or more months. Requiring a 
> dog
> to work in freezing weather all the time, is not only unhealthy for you, 
> but
> for the pup. Why make yourself and your dog uncomfortable in such cold
> weather, when you do not have to.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jordan Gallacher
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:17 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
> We  had an ice storm in Ruston and my dog worked fine even though it 
> started
> raining ice on the way back from dinner.
> Jordan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of d m gina
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:14 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
> I disagree here,
> I'm pleased the school I work with is quite understanding on behalf of
> winter.
> Gee they work in it when they can.
> Even they had problems this year.
>
> Original message:
>> Yes,. If you only use the dog once a week, you should not have the dog. 
>> .
>> Jordan
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:56 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>> Jordan, you hae some pretty amazing ideas on other topics; yet you want
> your
>> school to have a year's right to remove your dog. First of all, how can 
>> it
>> necessarily be proved that the dog isn't being used for the original
>> purpose. Second, what is that. I mean, what kind of flexibility is there
> in
>> that statement. Let's say I get a dog but I only go out once a week. Is
> that
>> mishandling of the dog? In a way, yes, or at least it is poor stewardship
>> because of the cost of training one. Should that dog be removed from me.
>> People hae ideas that we are mistreating our dogs all of the time. Who is
>> going to prove that I am. How are you going to determine if I am a valid
>> user in a year if you haven't determined that by the time I leave. If 
>> word
>> filters down that I sold the dog to a dog fighter or did something 
>> equally
>> weird, and that word got out, I should never again be allowed to have
>> another, and I guess I think it would even be fair if that was shared 
>> with
>> other schools.
>
>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>
>>> No, the school needs to have a way to make sure that the dog is being
> used
>>> properly and have an easy way to take back the dog if need be.  You can
> go
>>> through the entire training process and get home and never use, mis
>> handle,
>>> etc the dog.
>>> Jordan
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>>> Of Nimer Jaber
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:36 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>>> Jordan,
>
>>> I find this to be ludicrous. If the school trusted you enough after
>>> their extensive app process to get you there, to train you, to hand
>>> over the dog to you and allow you to leave their campus, surely they
>>> can be comfortable enough to give you ownership? What is the point of
>>> an application if they're not giving you ownership and they're going
>>> to make sure that you take careo f your dog for a year? Shouldn't they
>>> just do that instead of an application process lasting months,
>>> requiring a home interview, countless references, etc etc? Just to
>>> clarify, I agree with the interview process, I just find that the
>>> schools retaining ownership to be silly. This would save them costs.
>>> This would save them the headache. And as has already been pointed
>>> out, we aren't children. If someone can't handle their dog, there are
>>> channels that can be followed to get that animal removed.
>
>>> Thanks.
>
>>> On 30/01/2011, Jordan Gallacher <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Here is how ownership should be.  The school should own the dog for no
>>> more
>>>> than the first year or until the school knows that the user is properly
>>>> using the dog.
>>>> Jordan
>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>>>> Of Steven Johnson
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:04 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users';
>>> 'Blind
>>>> Talk Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>>>> Peter,
>
>>>> This is an interesting idea.  One thing that I don't believe you 
>>>> touched
>>> on,
>>>> or may have indirectly, is the issue of ownership which has been an
>>> ongoing
>>>> issue of discussion among the dog guide community and NAGDU for a very
>>> long
>>>> time.  This might be one way to at least bring this a little closer to
>>>> creating something that addresses this.
>
>>>> Again, an interesting idea.  I will be eager to hear what others think.
>
>>>> Steve
>
>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:48 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Cc: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>
>>>> Hello everyone,
>
>>>>    The situation Marion posted about concerning Fidelco's removal of
> dogs
>>>> from graduates without detailed bonified reasons for doing so along 
>>>> with
>>>> other issues concerning the treatment of students in training and
>> gradutes
>>>> of guide dog programs is leading me to believe that perhaps the best 
>>>> way
>>> to
>>>> address them is through legislation I'll refer to as a "Guide Dog
>>> Handler's
>>>> Bill of Rights." Such legislation would require guide dog programs 
>>>> among
>>>> other things to give valid reasons for the removal of someone's dog and
>> an
>>>> appeals  procedure to be put in place should a guide dog handler feel
>>> he/she
>
>>>> has been wrongly accused of mistreatment of the dog. Yes it's true 
>>>> there
>>> are
>
>>>> irresponsible guide dog handlers among us just as there are
> irresponsible
>>>> individuals in our society. This is no reason to treat the blind like
>>>> children.
>
>>>> The failure of Fidelco to give the graduate in question valid reasons
> for
>>>> the removal of the dog is a situation we should not tolerate and need 
>>>> to
>>> put
>
>>>> a stop to. Leader Dogs has also behaved in a similar way towards its
>>>> graduates. If memory serves me correctly a Leader Dog Graduate's dog 
>>>> was
>>>> removed from them during a recent national convention. And as I recall
>>> there
>
>>>> was insufficient reasons for the removal of that dog from its handler.
>
>>>>    A Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights could require all guide dog
>>> programs
>>>> to give their graduates full ownership of their dogs upon successful
>>>> completion of their programs. I emphasize the word "Successful."
>
>>>>        Another issue the legislation could address is communication
>>> between
>
>>>> guide dog handlers and puppy raisers. In most cases this isn't an 
>>>> issue.
>>>> Sadly there is at least one U.S. guide dog organization that refuzes to
>>>> offer their graduates and puppy raisers the opportunity to communicate
>>>> directly with each other. The Seeing Eye only permits communication
>>> between
>>>> the two parties through the school. It removes all contact information
>>> from
>>>> correspondence from notes passed between the two parties. Such a
>> custodial
>>>> practice also subjects both parties to censorship of such 
>>>> correspondence
>>> by
>>>> the school. Has this organization and others that may have similar
>>> practices
>
>>>> forgotten that they're dealing with adults who must learn to manage
> their
>>>> life's affairs including how communication between themselves and their
>>>> dog's puppy raiser will occur if it does at all. This decision should
>> rest
>>>> with the parties in question and not the dictates of a guide dog 
>>>> program
>>>> that thinks it is doing the right thing when in reallity it is doing
> more
>>>> harm than good.
>
>>>>    A guide dog handler's Bill of Rights would require guide dog 
>>>> programs
>>> to
>
>>>> establish procedures for facilitating direct communication between its
>>>> graduates and puppy raisers and would prohibit the removal of contact
>>>> information it may pass between them.
>
>>>>    A number of Seeing Eye graduates have discussed this matter with the
>>>> school only to receive one excuse after another. And oh yes. As was 
>>>> told
>>> to
>>>> Marion by Fidelco concerning the graduate who's dog was wrongly removed
>>> the
>>>> same old fashion voodoo about confidentiality and privacy are touted
>>>> concerning direct communication between puppy handlers and guide dog
>>> school
>>>> graduates. Programs like the Seeing Eye and others with similar
> practices
>>>> would do well to enter the new Milennium on this matter or face the
>>>> possibility of a legislative mandate to do so. Guide dog handlers have 
>>>> a
>>>> right to learn about their dog's up-bringing. Who best to provide that
>>>> information than the dog's puppy raiser.
>
>>>>    One Seeing Eye Instructor told me that when one adopts a child
> contact
>>>> information for the child's former parents is withheld. The same should
>> be
>>>> done in the case of guide dog puppy raisers and SE'S graduates. I
>> wouldn't
>>>> be pressed to want such information from an adoption agency in the 
>>>> first
>>>> place. As the child becomes a part of the family and begins to share
>>> his/her
>
>>>> background I'd have a way to get the information I need to be a more
>>>> effective parent. A dog is unable to communicate such information to 
>>>> its
>>>> owner. I have had guide dogs from several guide dog schools and had no
>>>> issues with communication between myself and the dog's raiser. I have
>> very
>>>> specific requirements any future guide dog program would need to me if
>> I'm
>>>> to seek training from them. Because all guide dog programs have one 
>>>> less
>>>> then desireable practice or another switching schools to address the
>> puppy
>>>> raiser communication issue is not an option. No self-respecting blind
>>>> individual should be put in such a predicament. Let's make sure
> graduates
>>> of
>
>>>> all guide dog programs have the opportunity to communicate directly 
>>>> with
>>>> their dog's puppy family if they choose to do so.
>
>>>>    These are just two issues a "Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights" could
>>>> address. I'm sure folks on these lists can think of more. It's an idea
>>> worth
>
>>>> considering to help put an end to practices many of us find demeaning
> and
>>>> offensive. Thanks for reading.
>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
>
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