[nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
Cindy Ray
cindyray at gmail.com
Mon Jan 31 15:07:36 UTC 2011
Well, if the school thinks the people need some additional supervision, and if follow up isn't determined by ownership vs. non-ownership, and if the contracts are inclusive enough, for instance, they state that if there is reasonable doubt upon observation of the person's competency as a dog handler for a period of time not to exceed whatever, then the ownership would be suspended, but that cause would need to be shown in writing, then I should think the person should own the dog nyway. My feeling has sometimes been that one gets a little faster follow up from my school in an area where there is a higher population of users with dogs from there. They did formerly call people when in the area to see how they were doing and ask if all is well, and one had the opportunity to schedule a little time then. They don't seem to do this anymore, though I couldn't prove that. But I don't really think their follow up is not as good because we own the dogs outright.
On Jan 31, 2011, at 8:43 AM, Julie J wrote:
> I really don't understand why ownership would be the determining factor for quality follow up service. It seems that if a program puts the time and energy into training and placing the dog, they are invested in the team working out. from a strictly financial point of view, it is in their best interest to keep the team working as long as possible because follow up is cheaper than training a new dog. It also seems that reputation would be a large factor in keeping teams going. I would venture a guess that the vast majority of donations and blind applicants come to them by word of mouth advertising.
>
> I honestly believe that the only benefit that ownership gives to anyone is of benefit to the program and that is to remove a dog for any reason without need of investigation or due process.
>
> If people are in favor of delayed ownership as an option, why can't an arrangement like GDF's be used as a model? From what Jenine has shared before almost all applicant's choose ownership, a few choose for the school to retain ownership and in some rare instances the school offers the applicant a dog with the understanding that ownership will be delayed due to extenuating circumstances. This seems fair to me. The vast majority of applicant's choose what ownership option will work best for them. the rare few that GDF feels need more supervision or support or whatever don't get immediate ownership. This seems like it acknowledges that not all blind people are incompetent and that there are a few blind people who may need additional assistance to make it work long term, but the determining factor isn't blindness, it is the individual circumstances of that person.
>
> JMHO
> Julie
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>
>> I have had great follow up services from GDB because they own the dog still
>> and they want to make sure everything is going well. Then it becomes as
>> needed. TSE left me to do everything myself, and even when I was able to
>> fight withthem and getsomeone down, they were no helop. They tolcontinue to
>> do what I was doing and left. They didn't even pay attention to the issues
>> I was having.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:38 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> Jordan,
>>
>> I don't understand the link between ownership and follow up services you are
>>
>> insinuating. Can you explain how ownership affects follow up services?
>>
>> Julie
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> Peter,
>>> Let me clue you in to tsE. TSE reposesed my last dog without any reason
>>> what so ever. AS a matter of fact, they did that after I retired him and
>>> had found a home for him. TSE really doesn't care enough after you
>>> graduate
>>> and you will have to do something about that to change my mind about the
>>> ownership policies at other schools. I had to retire my last dog because
>>> of
>>> lack of support where as GDB has sent an instructor out twice and pretty
>>> quickly, I might add, to help resolve issues. Without the 1 year
>>> ownership
>>> policy, I doubt that this would be happening.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:37 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Hello Jordan and everyone,
>>>
>>> Why. One school all ready gives its graduates complete ownership when
>>> they're finished with training. The legislative idea I'm suggesting would
>>> require all schools to follow Seeing Eye's example. Hopefully it will also
>>> raise expectations among guide dog handlers to where they'll demand that
>>> such a policy be duplicated in all guide dog training facilities. Hay man
>>> not more selling blind people short by suggesting a year's retention of
>>> ownership of the dog.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is how ownership should be. The school should own the dog for no
>>> more
>>> than the first year or until the school knows that the user is properly
>>> using the dog.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Steven Johnson
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:04 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users';
>>> 'Blind
>>> Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> This is an interesting idea. One thing that I don't believe you touched
>>> on,
>>> or may have indirectly, is the issue of ownership which has been an
>>> ongoing
>>> issue of discussion among the dog guide community and NAGDU for a very
>>> long
>>> time. This might be one way to at least bring this a little closer to
>>> creating something that addresses this.
>>>
>>> Again, an interesting idea. I will be eager to hear what others think.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:48 PM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Cc: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> The situation Marion posted about concerning Fidelco's removal of dogs
>>> from graduates without detailed bonified reasons for doing so along with
>>> other issues concerning the treatment of students in training and gradutes
>>> of guide dog programs is leading me to believe that perhaps the best way
>>> to
>>> address them is through legislation I'll refer to as a "Guide Dog
>>> Handler's
>>> Bill of Rights." Such legislation would require guide dog programs among
>>> other things to give valid reasons for the removal of someone's dog and an
>>> appeals procedure to be put in place should a guide dog handler feel
>>> he/she
>>>
>>> has been wrongly accused of mistreatment of the dog. Yes it's true there
>>> are
>>>
>>> irresponsible guide dog handlers among us just as there are irresponsible
>>> individuals in our society. This is no reason to treat the blind like
>>> children.
>>>
>>> The failure of Fidelco to give the graduate in question valid reasons for
>>> the removal of the dog is a situation we should not tolerate and need to
>>> put
>>>
>>> a stop to. Leader Dogs has also behaved in a similar way towards its
>>> graduates. If memory serves me correctly a Leader Dog Graduate's dog was
>>> removed from them during a recent national convention. And as I recall
>>> there
>>>
>>> was insufficient reasons for the removal of that dog from its handler.
>>>
>>> A Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights could require all guide dog programs
>>> to give their graduates full ownership of their dogs upon successful
>>> completion of their programs. I emphasize the word "Successful."
>>>
>>> Another issue the legislation could address is communication
>>> between
>>>
>>> guide dog handlers and puppy raisers. In most cases this isn't an issue.
>>> Sadly there is at least one U.S. guide dog organization that refuzes to
>>> offer their graduates and puppy raisers the opportunity to communicate
>>> directly with each other. The Seeing Eye only permits communication
>>> between
>>> the two parties through the school. It removes all contact information
>>> from
>>> correspondence from notes passed between the two parties. Such a custodial
>>> practice also subjects both parties to censorship of such correspondence
>>> by
>>> the school. Has this organization and others that may have similar
>>> practices
>>>
>>> forgotten that they're dealing with adults who must learn to manage their
>>> life's affairs including how communication between themselves and their
>>> dog's puppy raiser will occur if it does at all. This decision should rest
>>> with the parties in question and not the dictates of a guide dog program
>>> that thinks it is doing the right thing when in reallity it is doing more
>>> harm than good.
>>>
>>> A guide dog handler's Bill of Rights would require guide dog programs
>>> to
>>>
>>> establish procedures for facilitating direct communication between its
>>> graduates and puppy raisers and would prohibit the removal of contact
>>> information it may pass between them.
>>>
>>> A number of Seeing Eye graduates have discussed this matter with the
>>> school only to receive one excuse after another. And oh yes. As was told
>>> to
>>> Marion by Fidelco concerning the graduate who's dog was wrongly removed
>>> the
>>> same old fashion voodoo about confidentiality and privacy are touted
>>> concerning direct communication between puppy handlers and guide dog
>>> school
>>> graduates. Programs like the Seeing Eye and others with similar practices
>>> would do well to enter the new Milennium on this matter or face the
>>> possibility of a legislative mandate to do so. Guide dog handlers have a
>>> right to learn about their dog's up-bringing. Who best to provide that
>>> information than the dog's puppy raiser.
>>>
>>> One Seeing Eye Instructor told me that when one adopts a child contact
>>> information for the child's former parents is withheld. The same should be
>>> done in the case of guide dog puppy raisers and SE'S graduates. I wouldn't
>>> be pressed to want such information from an adoption agency in the first
>>> place. As the child becomes a part of the family and begins to share
>>> his/her
>>>
>>> background I'd have a way to get the information I need to be a more
>>> effective parent. A dog is unable to communicate such information to its
>>> owner. I have had guide dogs from several guide dog schools and had no
>>> issues with communication between myself and the dog's raiser. I have very
>>> specific requirements any future guide dog program would need to me if I'm
>>> to seek training from them. Because all guide dog programs have one less
>>> then desireable practice or another switching schools to address the puppy
>>> raiser communication issue is not an option. No self-respecting blind
>>> individual should be put in such a predicament. Let's make sure graduates
>>> of
>>>
>>> all guide dog programs have the opportunity to communicate directly with
>>> their dog's puppy family if they choose to do so.
>>>
>>> These are just two issues a "Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights" could
>>> address. I'm sure folks on these lists can think of more. It's an idea
>>> worth
>>>
>>> considering to help put an end to practices many of us find demeaning and
>>> offensive. Thanks for reading.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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