[nagdu] thoughts on policy alternatives
Lyn Gwizdak
linda.gwizdak at cox.net
Tue Jul 5 16:55:07 UTC 2011
Yeah, Albert, it would be nice if they would do it like you described - let
the hotel bust the person or people responsible for problems incurred by
their dogs.
But I see it as the sighted not wanting to deal with us so they'd rather
pawn it off onto the NFB or NAGDU to take care of it all for them.
It would be nice if the hotel would deal with the misbehaving guide dog
users and let the non problerm folks leave their dogs alone for a bit at the
conventions. It's too bad they can't find pet sitters willing to dog sit
for people.
Hope NFB and NAGDU can come to a resolution of the problem in a manner
everyone can be happy with.
Cheers,
Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] thoughts on policy alternatives
Tami,
Thanks for your thoughts. I feel that with all the work our forefathers and
foremothers have done, namely in the name of legislation to protect and
ensure our equality in all things, the least we could do is let the laws
take their course. As I see it, the hotels go to the organization hosting
the event and ask them to be the militants about enforcing this that or the
other, so they can avoid acting what can only be considered proper in asking
the blind putz and his dog to leave because the handler is unable to
properly handle his guide in a responsible manner. That is why the laws as
they are written, are constructed in a manner so no one persons individual
liberties trump any others. Any laws written to protect and ensure rights,
must also ensure that they do not impede on any others. Take for instance
the marriage equality law passed in new york for gay marriage. The governor
in his worldliness saw fit to allow for the inclusion of an opt out clause
for religious institutions which had he not would have impeded on their
civil liberties as well. the correlation I am trying to make, that the laws
as they are written, allow any hotel to refuse any individual access to
their establishment if they and their dog are not respecting house rules and
the laws governing this specific issue. What I guess I find odd is that the
hotel makes it nagdu's and the nfb's problem by asking them to make the
policy, thereby making the organizations paternalistic which goes against
everything the nfb and nagdu stand for. If the organization simply gave the
hotel copies of the law, and if the organization worked as diligently with
the hotel on this issue as they did in negotiating prices, the individuals
spoiling it for the rest of us could and should be denied membership and
access to the hotel based upon their refusal to follow policies as required
by the hotel and not by the organization. that way those of us who can trust
their guides to be left alone for a few hours would not have to revisit this
issue and this discussion repeatedly just my two cents and I am proud to
offer this universal consideration regardless of which organization I may or
may not be a member of.
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York 10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."
Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tami Kinney
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 2:36 PM
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nagdu] thoughts on policy alternatives
Albert,
Still coming in late and randomly on this one, but I want say that I do
agree philosophically with the approach you outlined here.
I can see only one problem with it in the context of the convention. Who
gets to be the lucky one to manage the logistics of making that happen?
With advance planning for future conventions, it would be feasible to
form a committee to plan it out and round up volunteers to form a crew
for that purpose. As well as to round up volunteers for dog sitting
type arrangement for those who want to go have fun without their dogs.
These volunteers would, I assume, need to be separate from the NAGDU
volunteers already committed to handling the table in the exhibit hall
for fundraising after having helped to organizing the fund raising
activies prior to to convention. And those who manage the registrations
and gathering of NAGDU dues for those who want to take an active part in
the business meeting. And those who do the arranging of the business
meeting and produce the materials for it and... Me, I need a nap just
thinking about it. /smile/ And I probably have left quite a few swaths
of volunteers out of the picture. You got your relief areas. You got
your dog food acquisitiion and distribution, you got your, well, there's
probably something else major I'm lieaving out of the already existing
logistical areas. Oh, I also remember that when I attended convention,
guide dog users were greeted with a week's supply of flea prevention
with offers of assistance to apply it. /smile/
It is certainly worth thinking about, especially if anyone who doesn't
already have her/his hands full wants to take a stab at leading the way.
I'm in the hands-full department currently, and would honestly prefer to
put in my convention time when next I manage to make it there lending a
hand in fundraising for a slot or two then enjoying the rest of
convention dealing iwth other areas of interest and/or need, secure in
the knowledge I have done my bit for NAGDU. /smile/
I will add that I am feeling quite pleased that what so often turns into
a big hairball of emotionally charged arguments and ferocious contention
appears to have turned into a discussion of althernatives, pros and
cons, greater awareness of the reasons for the rule in the first place
and the issues it was created to address. An adult discussion about
our desire to be treated like adults, not children, seems far more
productive to me than a childish one. /grin/
On Fri, 2011-07-01 at 13:52 -0400, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
> That is one great option for sure. I am still pondering marions request on
> how to sort out the bad apples. I would think that the hotel, or the
> organization itself would be able to have, certainly by now for as long as
> this has been an issue, kept a list of offenders, repeat offenders I
should
> think, and if and when they attend a conference, as sort of a consequence
of
> not properly attending to your dogs individual needs, whether that be
> cleaning up after them, hiring a dog sitter if your dog is not capable of
> being left alone for one reason or another, or as Marion shared, which was
> disturbing for sure, allowing their dogs to run freely in the hotel public
> areas,, as a condition of the offense, and I would wholeheartedly support
a
> zero tolerance across the board, would be to withhold the special rates
> offered to members and members in good standing. i would think that
hitting
> them in their purses would shift things just a little, at least that is
> where I would think to start changing the bad behavior. Consequences and
> rewards have dramatic impacts on all types of behavior.
>
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York 10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Michael Hingson
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 1:38 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] thoughts on policy alternatives
>
> Hi,
>
> Here is a thought which has worked elsewhere.
>
> Perhaps some of the guide dog school reps who attend the convention might
be
> willing to have a room or rooms where they can baby sit dogs. Ski for
Light
> does this. Trainers may wish to do this, for example, rather than
attending
> the banquet.
>
> Personally, I take Africa with me everywhere as I brought her and think it
> is my responsibility to use her and be with her at all times. I recognize
> others feel differently and it is not my place to assume all will act as I
> do.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
> "Speaking with Vision"
> Michael Hingson, President
> (415) 827-4084
> info at michaelhingson.com
> To learn more about my upcoming book, speaking topics and speaking
> availability please visit www.michaelhingson.com
> Thunder Dog is now available for early ordering on Amazon!!!
>
http://www.amazon.com/Thunder-Dog-Blind-Triumph-Ground/dp/140020304X/ref=sr_
> 1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289090352&sr=1-3
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion Gwizdala
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 8:17 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] moderator notes
>
> Albert,
> Do you have any suggestions on how we should deal with the "bad
apples"
> other than creating a policy, applicable to all, with specific remedies? I
> have heard a great deal of comments against the policy; however, none of
> those who disagree have offered an alternative.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 7:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] moderator notes
>
>
> > Well then perhaps the handlers should be banned rather then a whole
> > community who for the most part are more on top of their
responsibilities.
> > It goes back to not letting one bad apple spoil the whole bunch. Not
> > cleaning up after ones dog is unconscionable. /
> >
> > Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> > Founder
> > My Blind Spot, Inc.
> > 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> > New York, New York 10004
> > www.myblindspot.org
> > PH: 917-553-0347
> > Fax: 212-858-5759
> > "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
is
> > doing it."
> >
> >
> > Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
> > Of Julie J.
> > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:04 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] moderator notes
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> > Fleas were just the beginning. There were also issues of barking and not
> > cleaning up accidents.
> >
> > Julie
> > On 6/30/2011 7:28 PM, Dan Weiner wrote:
> >> So let's see...some dogs had fleas and therefore the rule is not to
leave
> >> your dogs unattended?
> >> Explain that one.
> >>
> >> Dan W.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Julie J.
> >> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 6:42 PM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: [nagdu] moderator notes
> >>
> >> Hey all!
> >>
> >> Wow! There are a ton of messages. I haven't read through all of them
> >> yet. I will. In the meantime I wanted to interject a few things.
> >>
> >> first and foremost, some of the messages have had a tone that is
> >> bordering
> >> on rude. I am a very, very, strong advocate of letting people speak
> >> their
> >> mind. However the writer *must* always be polite and keep
> >> the message on thoughts, ideas, facts or plans. It is
> >> absolutely not okay to flame an individual or even an organization.
Now
> >> before people go all crazy on me, please disagree to your hearts
content.
> >> Please tell us all the things you don't like about the NFB.
> >> I'm all ears, but where I draw the line is when constructive
> >> critisism turns into just plain whining or worse.
> >>
> >> So explain why it is that you don't agree with the policy. Tell us an
> >> alternative that could work just as well or better to solve the problem
> >> of
> >> barking and other problems with guide dogs left unattended in hotel
> >> rooms.
> >> Tell us what you have done to ensure that your dog isn't barking even
> >> when
> >> you are not there to know for sure.
> >>
> >> I also think it's important for people to know the history behind this
> > rule.
> >> It hasn't always been a policy of NAGDU and the NFB. Many years ago at
> >> an
> >> NFB convention in a very nice hotel that had given us very nice room
> > rates,
> >> guide dogs came that had fleas and were generally a huge problem. This
> >> hotel would not host our conventions ever again after their horrible
> >> experience. It turns out that hotels, just like all other sectors of
> >> commerce, talk amongst each other. It got around that guide dogs at
> >> convention were a problem. Other hotels were very reluctant if not
> > outright
> >> opposed to hosting our conventions. You will
> >> notice that NFB conventions get very, very good room rates. A hotel
> >> cannot deny a guest with a guide dog access, but when you are talking
> > about
> >> an entire convention you are talking about a very different thing. The
> >> excellent room rates were in jeopardy. So NAGDU and the NFB came up
with
> >> the plan to self regulate guide dog problems in order that the hotel
> >> would
> >> continue to give us the low room rates. This is why you are asked to
not
> >> leave your dog unattended, to clean up accidents or to
> >> get a NFB affiliated person to assist instead of hotel staff.
> >> These policies were not dreamt up to single out guide dog users or to
> >> make
> >> our lives more difficult. They were drafted after problems occurred
that
> >> were affecting the entire organization. So if there had been no fleas
in
> >> the first place or no dogs barking like crazy in hotel rooms, we would
> >> not
> >> have these policies and would not be having this discussion right now.
> >>
> >> Thanks for making this list great!
> >> Julie
> >> NAGDU list moderator
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
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