[nagdu] leaving your dog alone
cheryl echevarria
cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
Sat Jul 16 12:02:02 UTC 2011
New York State isn't any better, we have a few members that want to go. But we have to fight them tooth and nail.
Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
Cheryl Echevarria
http://www.echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
631-456-5394
reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise & Travel, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean Moore<mailto:sean.moore at mediacombb.net>
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] leaving your dog alone
Yeah that's me.
Never went to BLIND, INC. Georgia Rehab didn't want to pay for it and the
State agreed even after I filed apill (spelling?) the NFB of Georgia's Anil
Lewis tried to help but didn;t work out. The State is a pain to deal with.
uhhh bloody netbook.... never wants to leave focus on emails...annying!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net<mailto:tamara.8024 at comcast.net>>
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] leaving your dog alone
> Yeah, it's always a bit of shock for me to remember when you were first
> looking into getting a guide dog. Weren't you preparing for BLIND, Inc.,
> still living at home, just ready to get out into the adult world? If I
> have you confused with someone else, I apologized and am deeply
> embarrassed, but I seem to remember that that kid was you. /smile/ Now
> here you are, an independent adults guide dog user. Too cool!
>
> You can drive yourself crazy worrying too much, but I'm of the opinion
> that the so-called worry shows a potential responsible guide dog user
> who will learn from experience and go on to be a good handler and a good
> representative for all of the rest of us who struggle and worry and
> wonder if we'll ever get it right. /lol/ I still find myself doing that
> and being too distracted to notice how cool Mitzi has become at solving
> all the problems I used tow orry about. I'm learning to give it up and
> to take my guide for granted at the same time, so that's normal progress
> I guess. /smile/
>
> I've lightened up on myself about a lot of things, too, I realize.
> There's a time to be super persnickety in training, certainly, and also
> in those team building months and years when you both need to bet it
> right as you learn together. But now it's kinda nice to be able to
> notice that I've learned enough of what Canon Law says I should do and
> why that I can make accoommodations that work for both Mitzi and me in
> our lives as a team so taht purpose of the rules of etiquette and safety
> are preserved and everybody is happy. /smile/ I do find new things to
> wrry about still, though, so I can drive myself nuts with great ease and
> practice. /lol/
>
> Tami
>
> On Fri, 2011-07-15 at 17:30 -0400, Sean Moore wrote:
>> clicker .... I need to learn how to you one of those. I have one lying
>> around the house somewhere.
>>
>> Also maybe be more firm with Franklin too.
>>
>> Heck I remember when I was in training I thought I wouldn't finish for so
>> many reasons.
>>
>> The Grad Service Manager, Heidi I thnks I worry too much.
>>
>>
>> Maybe she's right.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net<mailto:tamara.8024 at comcast.net>>
>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 4:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] leaving your dog alone
>>
>>
>> > Oh, goodie! We can go around talking our dogs' heads off. /lol/
>> > Apparently, a surprising number of guide dog users do that without
>> > realizing it until somebody points it out to them. Those who have
>> > admitted to such silliness don't appear to know why they're doing it,
>> > either. Living alone does make it really easy to fall into the havit of
>> > just talking to your dog like you do people, though. Then again, now
>> > that I live with two other humans and another dog and a chincilla, we
>> > all just talk to all the animals like they're people, and they just act
>> > like this is normal and that they have come to expect it. We sspell
>> > words in front of the dogs before we realize that this is not fooling
>> > them a tall. /lol/
>> >
>> > So I've been considering why I talk so much to Mitzi about what we're
>> > doing and where we're going and so forth. When we're at the dog park,
>> > people seem to be a little confused by my asking her where things are,
>> > like the trash for a full doggie bag, until she just walks over and
>> > shows me while I follow her jingle. Or I will ask her where her ball
>> > is,
>> > aand they won't realize I'm talking to her. /lol/ She's trained to
>> > "show
>> > me" but "where is...?" works just as well. Funny critter.
>> >
>> > Anyway, I've also been noticing that my dog is trained and doesn't need
>> > a whole lot of cheerleading from me anymore, but I always end up with
>> > my
>> > clicker in hand, using it to click randomly without realizing it in a
>> > way that I can't possibly pass of even to myself as reinforcing
>> > behavior
>> > more complex than putting one foot in front of the other. So one day I
>> > left Mitzi at the groomer, grabbed my cane and clicker and off I went,
>> > clicking that cane every time it hesitated to allow me to figure out
>> > where I was in order to find something... I would catch myself asking
>> > myself where's the door... Um...
>> >
>> > So I finally clued in to what I'm actually doing there. I'm using
>> > echolocation to figure out my surroundings. /lol/ I go around yakking
>> > annoyingly -- even to myself -- sometimes whn I'm feeling a bit lost
>> > literally just to hear the sound of my own voice. So now I'm working on
>> > finding ways to use echolocation without alla the random
>> > chatter. /smmile/ The clicker really does make a difference, and Mitzi
>> > is apparently used to my random clicking beyond reinforcing the
>> > occasional good move just for kicks... Huh. Some trainer I am. /lol/ I
>> > can't use the ffinger snap technique of echolocation, because that's
>> > what I use with her to let her know I'm serious and she can now stop
>> > testing me and remember her manners. Don't have to do that often, but
>> > it's a quick way to end an argument when she's beeing snotty. The
>> > tongue-click doesn't always work for me, but I'm kinda trying it, too.
>> > I
>> > feel very stupid just at the thought of using it in public, but if it
>> > works...
>> >
>> > I will still keep talking to Mitzi like she's people, of course, and
>> > she
>> > will still nod and grin and show me where things are just because I
>> > happen to be wondering. /grin/
>> >
>> > Tami
>> >
>> > On Thu, 2011-07-14 at 18:31 -0400, Sean Moore wrote:
>> >> One of these days I need to meet you Tami. You also seem to talk to
>> >> Mitzi
>> >> as
>> >> much as I do Franklin. Maybe because I live alone and that i'm only my
>> >> early
>> >> 20s.
>> >>
>> >> No idea.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net<mailto:tamara.8024 at comcast.net>>
>> >> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:41 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] leaving your dog alone
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Gary,
>> >> >
>> >> > Ah, the poodle howl. I find Mitzi's quite lovely, but one can't
>> >> > always
>> >> > vouch for the neighbors sharing one's taste in howling dogs. /lol/
>> >> > Mitzi
>> >> > has an absolute talent for the little whine and a variety of
>> >> > piteous,
>> >> > broken-hearted yips to send after me just to make sure I understand
>> >> > how
>> >> > terribly I have caused her such pain as to step outside the
>> >> > door... /lol/ I had to work up to leaving her for any time at all by
>> >> > herself before she was socialized enough to go with me to more and
>> >> > more
>> >> > places. Actually, I would use grounding as negative reinforcement,
>> >> > and
>> >> > that actually worked. Who knew? /lol/
>> >> >
>> >> > She does much better if I tell her to stay and make sure to let her
>> >> > know
>> >> > where I'm going and why she needs to stay behind, etc., etc. Just
>> >> > taking
>> >> > off without her is a serious infraction of the rules and is not
>> >> > allowed!
>> >> > It had better be a good reason, too, or I am not off the hook! Funny
>> >> > dog, my poodle. I don't leave her alone at home with no humans
>> >> > present,
>> >> > because we just can't be that sure of Daisy. We're just not willing
>> >> > to
>> >> > take the risk that something might happen to set off her anxiety and
>> >> > cause her to redline, so Mitzi just doesn't stay home with her
>> >> > without
>> >> > supervision. Just in case. I'm glad to feel perfectly comfortable
>> >> > leaving her with DD, whom she adores, but... He assures me that if I
>> >> > want to go off and leave her for so long as 15 minutes to half an
>> >> > hour
>> >> > that she will drive him nuts. Huh. The couple of times I've done
>> >> > that,
>> >> > she has apparently paced and sighed and whined , which is all very
>> >> > heart-rending to him, so then he gets her quited down and tries to
>> >> > relax
>> >> > and watch TV, so she starts all over again. /smile/ Ah, well. I so
>> >> > rarely have a reason even to consider leaving her with him that
>> >> > it'snot
>> >> > a huge trial to me. Also, frankly, I like having my dog with me
>> >> > enough
>> >> > that there are an extremely limited number of conditions that cause
>> >> > me
>> >> > to think about it ever. Mostly heat-related in the summer because of
>> >> > her
>> >> > black coat and because of the dearth of sidewalks around here which
>> >> > means too much walking directly on blacktop. Booties do help with
>> >> > protecting her paws there, but they seem to increase the effects of
>> >> > heat
>> >> > for her by cutting off one source of air and cooling. Her coat is
>> >> > just
>> >> > so super thick that it doesn't let the heat go once it's collected
>> >> > it.
>> >> > Or am I just too tender-hearted. /lol/
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyway, I'm glad to know your poodle does better when you take the
>> >> > time
>> >> > to explain things to him, whatever it is our mysterious curly ones
>> >> > perceive or understand of the words we're saying. Frankly, based on
>> >> > my
>> >> > observations of Mitzi poodle, I would not be at all surpried to
>> >> > learn
>> >> > science had discovered that what she hears and understands when I
>> >> > talk
>> >> > is only slightly more advanced than what a human does. I really do
>> >> > wonder what goes on in that brain of hers. Daisy shows a great deal
>> >> > of
>> >> > understanding of what we say, as well, and to respond to it,
>> >> > especially
>> >> > ifit involves the word "go." /lol/ Even before we make moves to
>> >> > enact
>> >> > the plan we concoctedover morning coffee, she knows the game is
>> >> > afoot!
>> >> > Mitz, however, has responded to specifically to random conversation
>> >> > with
>> >> > strangers for me to discount the possibility that she's getting
>> >> > something close to a word by word comprehension. You know, I'll be
>> >> > talking to someone, say at the mall, and mention that I plan to go
>> >> > upstairs and hope i remember where the escalator is. THen I'll chat
>> >> > about other stuff, maybe mention I'm off to Starbuck's first... So
>> >> > then
>> >> > Mitzi and I part from whomever it is I was talking to and just
>> >> > kinda
>> >> > go
>> >> > off to Starbuck's , then I pause to wrack my brain again for the
>> >> > location of that dratted escalator, then notice I haven't said a
>> >> > word
>> >> > but am being guided straight from Starbuck's to the escalator since
>> >> > that
>> >> > is the next step on the itineraray. I've actually had arguments
>> >> > with
>> >> > my
>> >> > silly dog over a sudden change in itinerary. Nop! We're going to
>> >> > Plaid
>> >> > Pantry, then to Meat, then to Wild Oat... Circle K was not on the
>> >> > itinerary you presented to me, so we're not going there just
>> >> > brecause
>> >> > you suddenly remembered something you need from them the Plad Pantry
>> >> > doesn't have. /lol/ She did that a couple of times or more before
>> >> > finally relenting and agreeing that it wouldn't kill her to allow me
>> >> > to
>> >> > change my mind every now and then. I don't get that, really I
>> >> > don't,
>> >> > but her behavior does indicate that something like that is what is
>> >> > going
>> >> > on. Very strange.
>> >> >
>> >> > Tami
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 15:34 -0700, GARY STEEVES wrote:
>> >> >> Hi:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've learned that Bogart is pretty good at staying alone. Last
>> >> >> summer
>> >> >> I'd
>> >> >> had him for about 2 months when my girlfriend went away for 2
>> >> >> weeks. I
>> >> >> had left him alone for short periods with no issues so he seemed
>> >> >> fine
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> the about 5 hours I was out to see some bands.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The only time he had a problem was once when Susan and I went out
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> look
>> >> >> at an apartment and thought it best to not introduce the dog issue
>> >> >> before
>> >> >> we even decided if we were interested. We got out side and could
>> >> >> hear
>> >> >> him
>> >> >> howling from the back alley. I went back up and sort of got in his
>> >> >> face
>> >> >> and said enough. I got him to his bed and told him to stay. Of
>> >> >> course,
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> didn't stay as I was leaving but he got that he wasn't forgotten.
>> >> >> Saturdays we often take him out to the dog park or for long walks
>> >> >> at
>> >> >> least so he wasn't happy about being left behind. The other time
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> when
>> >> >> I was in Germany and left him with Susan. For the one weekday I was
>> >> >> away,
>> >> >> she came home from work to take him out. I didn't think that was
>> >> >> necessary and when she brought him back and then had to leave
>> >> >> again
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> did the howling thing again. She went back did the same thing as
>> >> >> before
>> >> >> and he was fine. In that case I think he would have been better
>> >> >> just
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> have been left alone for longer rather than her coming home and he
>> >> >> being
>> >> >> disappointed with her leaving yet one more time.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've learned that it is important that I tell him as we are getting
>> >> >> ready
>> >> >> that he is gong to stay home or stay with susan if I have to go out
>> >> >> without him. He seems to understand in some way what we are saying
>> >> >> so
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> less upset.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yesterday I went out for a bike ride and came home. We played a bit
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> then I had to head out to a jazz jam and it broke my little heart
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> gave a little whine as he realized what was happening. Our little
>> >> >> guys
>> >> >> certainly have a direct route to our hearts don't they?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyway, I think it is important to be able to leave your dog at
>> >> >> home
>> >> >> alone for a good amount of time just so you have the option. I Also
>> >> >> agree
>> >> >> to start in stages. I left him alone while I went and got the mail,
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> went to the storage room, getting the laundry. Once I was sure that
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> fine then it was running to the store or out to get a bottle of
>> >> >> wine.
>> >> >> :)
>> >> >> Once that was good it was going out for supper close by and then it
>> >> >> ended
>> >> >> up with me going out to see some bands last summer when Susan was
>> >> >> away.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> He seems pretty good and we haven't heard him howling or had any
>> >> >> negative
>> >> >> reports from the neighbours so I think my way has worked for
>> >> >> Bogart.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Gary
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: Wayne Merritt <wcmerritt at gmail.com<mailto:wcmerritt at gmail.com>>
>> >> >> Date: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 11:29 am
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog Schools
>> >> >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> >> >> Users"
>> >> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > At The Seeing Eye, they recommend slowly introducing the dog to
>> >> >> > being
>> >> >> > left alone, such as leaving for a few minutes, then for an hour,
>> >> >> > then
>> >> >> > for several hours, and so forth. They definitely don't recommend
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > walk out and leave them in a strange house the first time you
>> >> >> > leave
>> >> >> > the dog alone. As you say though, each dog/team is different. The
>> >> >> > first time I left my current guide at my parent's house, I had
>> >> >> > forgotten about this gradual leaving the dog home thing. I went
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > dinner with a friend and was gone for several hours. The next
>> >> >> > day, I
>> >> >> > asked my folks how my doggy did, and was told that the dog had
>> >> >> > some
>> >> >> > anxiety about being left at home. They did say that when they
>> >> >> > put her
>> >> >> > leash on her that she was better, but when I heard about her
>> >> >> > anxiety,
>> >> >> > I also made a mental note not to leave her alone for several
>> >> >> > hours the
>> >> >> > first time she was in a new place. That was operator error on my
>> >> >> > part
>> >> >> > and not her fault. Funny, that last statement brings to mind a
>> >> >> > phrase
>> >> >> > I had heard some time ago from a service dog trainer which can be
>> >> >> > applied to our guides. It went something like, "If something
>> >> >> > happens
>> >> >> > an the dog misbehaves, more than likely it's your fault."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Wayne
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On 7/12/11, PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
>> >> >> > <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com<mailto:REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>> wrote:
>> >> >> > > I don't know the duration schools say for leaving a dog
>> >> >> > shortly after coming
>> >> >> > > home, but I left my dog for an evening to go to an Indigo
>> >> >> > Girls concert. The
>> >> >> > > dog was fine.
>> >> >> > > I say this because you don't want to sell yourself short of
>> >> >> > fun stuff to do,
>> >> >> > > and because our dogs will be fine. I was gone for a night.
>> >> >> > > Also, it was one of those things where me not going would have
>> >> >> > been more
>> >> >> > > upsetting then staying home with my dog.
>> >> >> > > Also, if you do have to travel, your dog will adjust. That's
>> >> >> > what they do.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> > > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-
>> >> >> > bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf
>> >> >> > > Of Julie McGinnity
>> >> >> > > Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 3:21 PM
>> >> >> > > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> >> >> > > Users
>> >> >> > > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog Schools
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Hi Brianna.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > I went for my first dog when I was still in high school, so I
>> >> >> > > was
>> >> >> > > thinking about the same things you seem to be now. I
>> >> >> > went to
>> >> >> > > GEB(Guiding Eyes for the blind). I had a great
>> >> >> > experience. I worked
>> >> >> > > well with the trainers, even though I was young and worried
>> >> >> > > about
>> >> >> > > everything. Even if you would like a shorter program, I
>> >> >> > just would
>> >> >> > > like to remind you that all schools recommend that you don't
>> >> >> > > travel
>> >> >> > > with your dog or leave your dog alone to take a trip for the
>> >> >> > first few
>> >> >> > > months. Also, a lot of your first Summer with that dog
>> >> >> > will be full
>> >> >> > > of that dog. You and your dog will be forming a bond,
>> >> >> > which is quite
>> >> >> > > magical, but it does take time and energy.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > If you have any questions about Guide dogs, dog schools, or
>> >> >> > > Guiding
>> >> >> > > Eyes, feel free to email me off list.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Now I have to get my own little dog out from under a
>> >> >> > bed! :)
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > On 7/11/11, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com<mailto:cindyray at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >> >> > >> Which school of those do you think you would like?
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > >> nagdu mailing list
>> >> >> > >> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >> >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>> >> >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >> >> > info for
>> >> >> > >> nagdu:
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com>>>
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > --
>> >> >> > > Julie McG
>> >> >> > > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating
>> >> >> > member in Opera
>> >> >> > > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of
>> >> >> > > Guiding
>> >> >> > > Eyes for the Blind
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>> >> >> > > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have
>> >> >> > > eternal
>> >> >> > > life."
>> >> >> > > John 3:16
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > > nagdu mailing list
>> >> >> > > nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >> >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>> >> >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >> >> > info for nagdu:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com>>
>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > > nagdu mailing list
>> >> >> > > nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >> >> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>> >> >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> >> >> > info for nagdu:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/wcmerritt%40gmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/wcmerritt%40gmail.com>>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > Follow me on Twitter at:
>> >> >> > www.twitter.com/wcmerritt<http://www.twitter.com/wcmerritt>
>> >> >> > My websites:
>> >> >> > www.wayneism.com<http://www.wayneism.com/>
>> >> >> > www.whitecaneday.org<http://www.whitecaneday.org/>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > nagdu mailing list
>> >> >> > nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
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>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> nagdu mailing list
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>> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
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>> >> >> for
>> >> >> nagdu:
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > nagdu mailing list
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>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
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>> >> > for
>> >> > nagdu:
>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sean.moore%40mediacombb.net<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sean.moore%40mediacombb.net>
>> >>
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