[nagdu] Being a cane user and also using a dog.
holly mcknight
hollyandpolly at hotmail.com
Tue Jun 21 18:49:48 UTC 2011
Hello all, It has been a few since my last post, but now I shall share. I am a three-time graduate of Guide Dogs for the Blind, and have been using dog for almost eighteen years. When I first applied, it was very much impressed on me, that a person who is blind and wanting to train with a dog, MUST have very good cane skills before applying. This is because a dog does not know routes, and the blind person who is using the dog must know where they are in space and how to direct their dog to where they want to go. I still have a cane and use it sometimes, if I am in a situation where a dog is impractical. I feel much safer, as a woman with my dog. Obviously, our dogs do pick up on routes that we regularly travel, and they can follow someone when asked to do so. This is handy in places where there is not a lot of space. When using a dog and learning a knew place, it can be helpful to go to the new place using a cane, before a dog is taken there. Someone said that they wondered if dog users were not as good of travelers as cane users are. I think a dog user is actually a much better traveler. I have done all kinds of things with dogs, college, being in a wedding, traveling outside of the U.S., and going on a cruise. I hope this helps. Some dog users also carry a small folding cane in their bag for indentification reasons. I do not because if someone has a question, it is very important for me to stop and answer if I have the time.
> From: nagdu-request at nfbnet.org
> Subject: nagdu Digest, Vol 75, Issue 24
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:00:14 -0500
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Orientation Assistance at Convention (Tami Kinney)
> 2. a cane and dog discussion (Julie McGinnity)
> 3. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Steven Johnson)
> 4. Re: [Bulk] a cane and dog discussion (B Avila Guerrero)
> 5. Re: a cane and dog discussion (cheryl echevarria)
> 6. Re: a cane and dog discussion (cheryl echevarria)
> 7. Re: [Bulk] a cane and dog discussion (cheryl echevarria)
> 8. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Shannon Dyer)
> 9. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Cindy Ray)
> 10. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Cindy Ray)
> 11. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Dan Weiner)
> 12. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Julie J.)
> 13. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Ally Matt)
> 14. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Dan Weiner)
> 15. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Sheila Leigland)
> 16. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Albert J Rizzi)
> 17. Re: a cane and dog discussion (cheryl echevarria)
> 18. Re: a cane and dog discussion (cane silence) (Mike)
> 19. Re: a cane and dog discussion (cane silence) (Hope Paulos)
> 20. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Margo and Arrow)
> 21. Re: a cane and dog discussion (cane silence) (Albert J Rizzi)
> 22. Re: a cane and dog discussion (cane silence) (Albert J Rizzi)
> 23. Re: a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
> (PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC))
> 24. Re: [Bulk] a cane and dog discussion (Tami Kinney)
> 25. Re: a cane and dog discussion (Tami Kinney)
> 26. Re: a cane and dog discussion (cane silence) (Sheila Leigland)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:23:21 -0700
> From: Tami Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Orientation Assistance at Convention
> Message-ID: <1308522201.2913.4.camel at tamara-desktop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> That does sound like a great thing he's doing. The idea of having
> orientation assistance from someone who knows guide dogs sounds great.
> I'm not soing I don't enjoy the challenge and feeling of victory of
> figuring stuff out for myself, but... Having an expert along to make it
> easier would be even more fun. /grin/
>
> For those who take him up on his offer, please to not forget to report
> back to the rest of us who will be with you in spirit (or is that pure
> envy?)! /grin/
>
> On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 11:59 -0700, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
> > Great that John Byfield is going to help out at the convention. That man
> > sure gets around! I first knew him in 1973 when I went to GDF for my first
> > dog. He's a good trainer and a nice person! I saw him again in 1998 when I
> > visited him at Fidelco while I was with a friend who was then a Fidelco
> > graduate. Take advantage of his knowledge, folks!
> >
> > Lyn and Landon
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> > To: "NAGDU List" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 10:26 AM
> > Subject: [nagdu] Orientation Assistance at Convention
> >
> >
> > > Dear All,
> > > John Byfield, perhaps one of the most experienced trainers in the
> > > country, has contacted me offering to provide orientation to anyone who
> > > feels they need it. John will be in the hotel lobby around noon on
> > > Saturday, July 2. If you would like some professional assistance getting
> > > oriented to the Shingle Creek, John is an awesome resource. If you would
> > > like more information, please write to me off-list at
> > >
> > > President at NAGDU.ORG
> > >
> > > Fraternally yours,
> > > Marion Gwizdala
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > nagdu mailing list
> > > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > > nagdu:
> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tamara.8024%40comcast.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 01:46:08 -0500
> From: Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <BANLkTik8-zRgrdwXOQguVQsLo6JqoRr8ZQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hello everyone.
>
> It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
>
> Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> users when it comes to travelling?
>
> Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the time?
>
>
> Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
>
> I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> say.
>
> Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
>
> --
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 05:01:59 -0500
> From: "Steven Johnson" <blinddog3 at charter.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <000c01cc2f31$18925d10$49b71730$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Julie,
> Chances are that you will have a somewhat slanted view by posting this
> question on this NAGDU list, so in fairness and to obtain a more equal
> response, I would suggest you possibly post on another site, and I would
> suggest the blind talk list.
>
> JMO,
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie McGinnity
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:46 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
> Hello everyone.
>
> It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
>
> Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> users when it comes to travelling?
>
> Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the
> time?
>
>
> Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
>
> I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> say.
>
> Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
>
> --
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blinddog3%40charter.n
> et
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 04:22:34 -0600
> From: "B Avila Guerrero" <guerrero.avila at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [Bulk] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <005101cc2f33$f93bdfb0$ebb39f10$@avila at sbcglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Julie, with all due respect,
> What difference does it make what we think? What matters is what works for
> you and how you will travel best, be safe and as independent as you want to
> be.
>
> I have been on two lists of Dog guide users for the past few months, and so
> far, and I don't mean to insult any one, but what I have found are very
> judgmental and opinionated people.
>
> My advice and take it for what it is worth, work with your dog, your school
> and do what is best for you.
> Bertha
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie McGinnity
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:46 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [Bulk] [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
> Hello everyone.
>
> It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
>
> Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> users when it comes to travelling?
>
> Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the
> time?
>
>
> Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
>
> I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> say.
>
> Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
>
> --
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/guerrero.avila%40sbcg
> lobal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:42:00 -0400
> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <BLU162-ds18E15BC253A3B4B99275D7A16E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> gm Julie:
>
> My thought on this, and I am still using my first guide dog.
>
> First, I always have my cane with me. I think it is important that we use both, in case, dog is sick, or we are in between dogs. I was also told at my guide dog school, that our dogs become as dependent on us as we are of them.
>
> So, at least once a week, I leave him at home and use my cane, not all day, I don't leave him home for hours. I want to make sure that god forbid something happens to my dog, or I want to go to a place where I can't bring him, that I keep my cane skills.
>
> It is important, I would hate to wait in the house for months at a time waiting for a dog, when I can be doing something. I love my Maxx.
>
> But let's say we weren't blind and our car broke down, I would have to take a bus or walk. (I know not the same, I used to be sighted my own comparison)
>
> It is important for all of us to have alternatives, plus I don't' like to rely on others to help me to get from point A to point B unless absolutely necessary, I hope this help
> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> http://www.echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
> 631-456-5394
> reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise & Travel, Inc.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Julie McGinnity<mailto:kaybaycar at gmail.com>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 2:46 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
>
> Hello everyone.
>
> It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
>
> Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> users when it comes to travelling?
>
> Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the time?
>
>
> Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
>
> I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> say.
>
> Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
>
> --
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:43:11 -0400
> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <BLU162-ds185EDDE12EAC0A3406BAACA16E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> why she is asking pertaining to using other skills as a guide dog users, this is for that here.
>
> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> http://www.echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
> 631-456-5394
> reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise & Travel, Inc.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steven Johnson<mailto:blinddog3 at charter.net>
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 6:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
>
> Hi Julie,
> Chances are that you will have a somewhat slanted view by posting this
> question on this NAGDU list, so in fairness and to obtain a more equal
> response, I would suggest you possibly post on another site, and I would
> suggest the blind talk list.
>
> JMO,
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie McGinnity
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:46 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
> Hello everyone.
>
> It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
>
> Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> users when it comes to travelling?
>
> Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the
> time?
>
>
> Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
>
> I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> say.
>
> Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
>
> --
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blinddog3%40charter.n<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blinddog3%40charter.n>
> et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:44:25 -0400
> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [Bulk] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <BLU162-ds185D50462FB7B937473334A16E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Again, she is asking a question, I think it is a fair one.
>
>
> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> http://www.echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
> 631-456-5394
> reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise & Travel, Inc.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: B Avila Guerrero<mailto:guerrero.avila at sbcglobal.net>
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 6:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [Bulk] a cane and dog discussion
>
>
> Julie, with all due respect,
> What difference does it make what we think? What matters is what works for
> you and how you will travel best, be safe and as independent as you want to
> be.
>
> I have been on two lists of Dog guide users for the past few months, and so
> far, and I don't mean to insult any one, but what I have found are very
> judgmental and opinionated people.
>
> My advice and take it for what it is worth, work with your dog, your school
> and do what is best for you.
> Bertha
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie McGinnity
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:46 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [Bulk] [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
> Hello everyone.
>
> It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
>
> Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> users when it comes to travelling?
>
> Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the
> time?
>
>
> Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
>
> I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> say.
>
> Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
>
> --
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/guerrero.avila%40sbcg<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/guerrero.avila%40sbcg>
> lobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 07:02:32 -0400
> From: Shannon Dyer <solsticesinger at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <10FE40F2-9137-40F9-A5EC-5F7FB20DE111 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi, Julie.
>
> As a child and young adult, I never liked my cane. I learned how to use it, and did so safely all through elementary and most of high school. However, when I was old enough to apply for a guide dog, I did. Due to some other factors that I won't go into here, a dog allows me to travel much more safely and confidently than I ever did with a cane. So, for me, a dog made me more independent than I ever was with a cane.
>
> In terms of losing cane skills, I suppose it's possible. I don't often travel without my guide, but, if I have to for some reason, I haven't noticed any decline in my cane skills. I suppose this would depend on the person though.
>
> Shannon and Caroline
> Are you a fan of women's music? If so, join me each Thursday from noon until three for the Eclectic Collection: a Celebration of Women In Music. Point your media player to:
> http://mojoradio.us/listen
> or
> www.mintfm.net
>
> On Jun 20, 2011, at 2:46 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone.
> >
> > It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> > discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> > arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> > their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> > questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
> >
> > Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> > users when it comes to travelling?
> >
> > Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the time?
> >
> >
> > Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
> >
> > I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> > them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> > experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> > to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> > invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> > and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> > don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> > say.
> >
> > Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
> >
> > --
> > Julie McG
> > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> > Eyes for the Blind
> >
> > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> > life."
> > John 3:16
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/solsticesinger%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:24:44 -0500
> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <5679A817-B6C1-4868-B848-1093B3D25218 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I think this is a good place to post this because, while this is a list of dog users, there \ a variety
> experience on it.
> On Jun 20, 2011, at 5:01 AM, Steven Johnson wrote:
>
> > Hi Julie,
> > Chances are that you will have a somewhat slanted view by posting this
> > question on this NAGDU list, so in fairness and to obtain a more equal
> > response, I would suggest you possibly post on another site, and I would
> > suggest the blind talk list.
> >
> > JMO,
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> > is Of Julie McGinnity
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:46 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> >
> > Hello everyone.
> >
> > It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> > discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> > arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> > their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> > questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
> >
> > Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> > users when it comes to travelling?
> >
> > Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the
> > time?
> >
> >
> > Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
> >
> > I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> > them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> > experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> > to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> > invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> > and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> > don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> > say.
> >
> > Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
> >
> > --
> > Julie McG
> > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> > Eyes for the Blind
> >
> > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> > life."
> > John 3:16
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blinddog3%40charter.n
> > et
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:30:19 -0500
> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <32EB08DC-013D-4EC9-A6E1-74148406E645 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I used a cane for twenty-five years before getting a dog. I was very independent with the cane; I am with the dog, though there are some times when I don't feel so. I find it a little stressful to find a place to relieve it when going to a new hotel, though I have also learned that practice makes perfect. I am beginning to find that there are places where the cane would be preferable--when the choir has sung, for instance. I don't prefer the reaction to the dogs that I get, people interrupting my discussions at dinner to ask about my dog, for instance, or speaking to the dog and not to me. I knew I would feel like this when I got the first one. I don't make it a point to practie with the cane any scheduled time because I know I don't need to, but for the first few minutes when I do use it, it is a little strange after having the dog. For a long time I felt more independent with the cane to be honest. And I know there are people who gained confidence using dogs and then that transferred to the cane, so it is just a wide variety.
> Cindy
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:12:53 -0400
> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <20110620121256.BD260A5AF at thunderer.cnc.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi, Julie.
>
> First of all, welcome to the world of guide dogs.
> I've been off the list for some time so I don't know if you've written about
> your experiences so if you haven't , I'd love to hear what prompted you to
> get a guide dog and how it's been.
>
> My name is Dan Weiner, pronounced to rhyme with "miner"--smile--and I've
> used guide dogs for 17 years.
>
> All right, here's my answer and it may sound like I'm being a grouch:
> Who cares--smile.
> This cane and dog controversy has been around for years and years and I
> honestly couldn't care less about the answer to those questions.
> What works for one person doesn't work for another... I don't judge people
> on their O and M skills so much as on what type of person they are, unlike,
> it would seem, a lot of my fellow blind people.
>
> If people get a dog, it's obvious that for some reason the cane wasn't doing
> it for them.
>
> If they decide to use a cane, then it's clear that they for some reason
> don't want or need a dog--lol.
>
> Now, in real life I'm a very nice person, so don't let my answer turn you
> off--smile.
>
>
> Dan and the Carter Dog
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 07:26:26 -0500
> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <4DFF3C72.5010204 at neb.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> My thoughts on this topic have changed over time and I still think I
> have a long way to go to get to the core of it. Anyhow here's my
> current thinking.
>
> I think guide dog users and cane users have the potential to be amazing
> travelers. I think how good of a traveler you are is partly due to
> inherent talent, partly to a good instructor and mostly to do with
> practice and perseverance.
> I've met really good and really bad travelers from both groups-dogs and
> canes. Dog users do have to be more committed to the practice portion
> of the equation though. Guide dog programs also require some level of
> cane skill before getting a guide. I suppose this does eliminate a few
> people from getting a dog. Although if they have the perseverance part
> of the equation, they could acquire the skills they need to qualify for
> the dog. So in the end, for me, it comes down to motivation. How
> motivated a person is to be a good traveler is going to have a huge
> impact on how well they travel, cane or dog.
>
> I'm a good traveler with either tool. My preference is obviously a
> guide dog, but I don't feel any hesitation in leaving Monty behind if
> that is what is best. Well, I don't hesitate due to travel worries, but
> I do miss him.
>
> Like Cindy, I worry about finding suitable places to relieve Monty when
> I travel to other cities. Sometimes when entering a new restaurant or
> business I wonder if I am going to have access problems. Next week I am
> attending a training thing for work. the event is taking place at an
> Asian Center. It does stress me a bit, knowing that there could be an
> access issue.
>
> JMHO
> Julie J.
>
>
> On 6/20/2011 1:46 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote:
> > Hello everyone.
> >
> > It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> > discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> > arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> > their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> > questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
> >
> > Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> > users when it comes to travelling?
> >
> > Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the time?
> >
> >
> > Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
> >
> > I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> > them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> > experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> > to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> > invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> > and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> > don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> > say.
> >
> > Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:30:49 -0400
> From: "Ally Matt" <ally.matt0 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <4dff3d8c.8f3ce70a.171c.ffff972a at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Julie,
>
> My experience is that I have felt more independent since I have had my dogs
> than when I was using a cane. I have never felt super comfortable using a
> cane despite O & M training with the cane. So, I don't really ever use my
> cane unless my dog can't work for some reason. It's my opinion that it is
> not the dog or the cane that makes someone more or less independent. I think
> it's about which the person is most comfortable with because at least for
> me, when I feel comfortable I'm likely to do things or go places especially
> places that I am not familiar with. Of course, these are just my opinions on
> the subject.
> Ally
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie McGinnity
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 2:46 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
> Hello everyone.
>
> It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
>
> Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> users when it comes to travelling?
>
> Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the
> time?
>
>
> Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
>
> I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> say.
>
> Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
>
> --
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ally.matt0%40gmail.co
> m
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:55:54 -0400
> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <20110620125555.C5BEF1D6C at repulse.cnc.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> All right, here I go with my take on it though what I said earlier still
> applies, I don't care what tool people use and I don't care about their
> skills, I take people as human beings, and I don't think that people need to
> measure up to some standard.
>
> I know how to use both but a dog, a properly trained one and the right match
> for an individual, can do things a cane just doesn't.
>
> There are walks I take with a dog that I wouldn't take with a cane.
> First of all just having a dog made me actually want to go on walks.
> Before that walking or not was just a means to an end and one I would have
> been glad to avoid--smile.
>
>
> I, of course have needed t use a cane since then and though I know how to
> use it, I do a lot of things that I might not do with a dog, veer, or just
> simply get lost--smile.
> I have a hearing issue in one ear and it plays havoc with orientation.
>
> All right, some people just don't want the responsibility of having a dog
> and that's perfectly all right.
> However, even the best cane travelers I've seen will improve their travel
> with a dog, in other words, just because you're a great cane traveler it
> doesn't mean that a dog might not benefit you in some way.
> I hear a lot of smug cane users say "oh, well if I had some other handicap
> I'd want a dog, but I don't need one". Well, of course, you don't in quotes
> "need" one, but as I've said I've seen some great cane travelers who benefit
> from having a pair of canine eyes to help them out--smile
>
>
> When you have a dog you're working with a living thing, and it's team work,
> so some people just can't adjust to that and I respect their honesty in
> admitting that.
>
> The feeling of freedom I have when I'm taking a nice brisk walk with my dog
> and it's going great is something, though, that I never had with a cane, so
> I'll be sticking with a dog for a long time, I suspect.
>
> I think that, based on my reactions when I've been between dogs or when my
> dogs are sick, that I would really miss it.
>
>
> What I'm tired of though, and I see this in our NFB or at least I used to,
> is this spirit of competition, cane users feeling they had to compete or
> justify.
> I'd say something good about what my dog does and I'd get the response:
>
> "I can do that with my cane", well, big deal, do I really give a
> shoot?--smile
> What I mean is, I'm not trying to compete but I have a right to say that I
> have been benefited by the use of a dog. Well, someone who gets good cane
> training certainly has a right to talk about how it's benefited them too and
> I don't object.
> So, let's all use what works and just deal with it.
>
> I've noticed something, ever seen in the monitor a picture of a person with
> their guide dog and it's John Smith with his guide dog, the dog never has a
> name and it almost seems like you're not supposed to say anything that would
> give your dog personality?
>
> Just my take on it.
>
>
> Is that helpful or do I need to give you more concrete examples?
>
> Dan and Carter Dog
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:06:15 -0600
> From: Sheila Leigland <sleigland at bresnan.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <auto-000040596144 at fe-3.cluster1.bresnan.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I think it depends on the situations that a person deals with daily. I do much better with a dog in snow and on ice than I did with a cane. I used a cane exclusivily until almost eleven years ago when I got my first dog.my first dog. I've known cane users that have no interest in getting a dog and that is fine. I don't know people that have lost there cane skills but I've heard of it..
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 10:19:13 -0400
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <C046A0D260744131878727743CE4F8F7 at JkTC4D1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello all,
>
> Was not sure if I were going to chime in here or not. cane versus dog. I
> choose dog all the way. as a recent entrant into the community, and in
> assessing my needs from a tactile standpoint, I find the dog much better as
> well as expeditious for my needs. I find that when my cane taps something I
> am 99% inclined to reach out and touch whatever it is that is in my path. I
> do this for my own knowledge of what is on my path and just for the
> curiosity of it all. with my guide none of that ever happens. I could be
> walking through an obstacle course full of pot holes or pillars and never
> once want to nor need to know what it is I avoided. Add to that the issue of
> my sighted peers not seeing what they are looking at and again I choose the
> dog hands down. I had my cane stepped on and snapped three times in my first
> 4 months of being blind. that was enough experience for me to not want to
> use the cane. The dog for one reason or another catches the eyes of the
> sighted, it minimizes accidental cane breakage and it always opens the door
> for a dialogue or discussion where the cane sort of acts like a dome of
> silence which at first glance is impenetrable by the sighted community. so
> power to the pup for me anyway. Peace.
>
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York 10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Sheila Leigland
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:06 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
> I think it depends on the situations that a person deals with daily. I do
> much better with a dog in snow and on ice than I did with a cane. I used a
> cane exclusivily until almost eleven years ago when I got my first dog.my
> first dog. I've known cane users that have no interest in getting a dog and
> that is fine. I don't know people that have lost there cane skills but I've
> heard of it..
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
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> org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 10:21:44 -0400
> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <BLU162-ds3FC19DEED12C8FCF36C6EA16E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dan you weren't grouchy at all, very pleasant answer.
>
> I like the other answers to the rest, yes it is up to the individual and the situation we find us in.
>
> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> http://www.echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
> 631-456-5394
> reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise & Travel, Inc.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dan Weiner<mailto:dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 8:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
>
> Hi, Julie.
>
> First of all, welcome to the world of guide dogs.
> I've been off the list for some time so I don't know if you've written about
> your experiences so if you haven't , I'd love to hear what prompted you to
> get a guide dog and how it's been.
>
> My name is Dan Weiner, pronounced to rhyme with "miner"--smile--and I've
> used guide dogs for 17 years.
>
> All right, here's my answer and it may sound like I'm being a grouch:
> Who cares--smile.
> This cane and dog controversy has been around for years and years and I
> honestly couldn't care less about the answer to those questions.
> What works for one person doesn't work for another... I don't judge people
> on their O and M skills so much as on what type of person they are, unlike,
> it would seem, a lot of my fellow blind people.
>
> If people get a dog, it's obvious that for some reason the cane wasn't doing
> it for them.
>
> If they decide to use a cane, then it's clear that they for some reason
> don't want or need a dog--lol.
>
> Now, in real life I'm a very nice person, so don't let my answer turn you
> off--smile.
>
>
> Dan and the Carter Dog
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 07:51:32 -0700
> From: "Mike" <underthetoaster at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
> Message-ID: <8C454B887D86456E8111537AC59121EB at HatMachine>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hi,
> I love how you brought up the silence factor of using a cane. It's one of
> the most irritating things in the world. People yakking away in a hallway is
> fine but then when you get close with your cane they all hold their breath
> and clam up like they're scared they're going to get whacked. . Wouldn't it
> be a lot smarter if they say something to you so you know where they are
> instead of vanishing into silence?
> Anyway there are irritating things about canes and dogs. Everybody being an
> expert on dogs and what to feed, how to groom, etc. advice is very annoying
> to me. And the usual roster of questions gets old quickly.
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Was not sure if I were going to chime in here or not. cane versus dog. I
> > choose dog all the way. as a recent entrant into the community, and in
> > assessing my needs from a tactile standpoint, I find the dog much better
> > as
> > well as expeditious for my needs. I find that when my cane taps something
> > I
> > am 99% inclined to reach out and touch whatever it is that is in my path.
> > I
> > do this for my own knowledge of what is on my path and just for the
> > curiosity of it all. with my guide none of that ever happens. I could be
> > walking through an obstacle course full of pot holes or pillars and never
> > once want to nor need to know what it is I avoided. Add to that the issue
> > of
> > my sighted peers not seeing what they are looking at and again I choose
> > the
> > dog hands down. I had my cane stepped on and snapped three times in my
> > first
> > 4 months of being blind. that was enough experience for me to not want to
> > use the cane. The dog for one reason or another catches the eyes of the
> > sighted, it minimizes accidental cane breakage and it always opens the
> > door
> > for a dialogue or discussion where the cane sort of acts like a dome of
> > silence which at first glance is impenetrable by the sighted community.
> > so
> > power to the pup for me anyway. Peace.
> >
> >
> > Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> > Founder
> > My Blind Spot, Inc.
> > 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> > New York, New York 10004
> > www.myblindspot.org
> > PH: 917-553-0347
> > Fax: 212-858-5759
> > "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> > doing it."
> >
> >
> > Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> > Of Sheila Leigland
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:06 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> >
> > I think it depends on the situations that a person deals with daily. I do
> > much better with a dog in snow and on ice than I did with a cane. I used a
> > cane exclusivily until almost eleven years ago when I got my first dog.my
> > first dog. I've known cane users that have no interest in getting a dog
> > and
> > that is fine. I don't know people that have lost there cane skills but
> > I've
> > heard of it..
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
> > org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/underthetoaster%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:02:00 -0400
> From: "Hope Paulos" <hope.paulos at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
> Message-ID: <5437E53F985847B896CCC224F5D8BA09 at Espy>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> I couldn't agree more with you, Albert. at times I go out without my dog to
> regain my cane skills. Every time I do, I feel invisible. No one talks to
> me, I feel like eeveryone's watching me and I'm the slowest person (at least
> I feel that way anyway). My dog provides me with so much freedom and speed.
> <smiles>
> Hope and Beignet
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike" <underthetoaster at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
>
>
> > Hi,
> > I love how you brought up the silence factor of using a cane. It's one of
> > the most irritating things in the world. People yakking away in a hallway
> > is fine but then when you get close with your cane they all hold their
> > breath and clam up like they're scared they're going to get whacked. .
> > Wouldn't it be a lot smarter if they say something to you so you know
> > where they are instead of vanishing into silence?
> > Anyway there are irritating things about canes and dogs. Everybody being
> > an expert on dogs and what to feed, how to groom, etc. advice is very
> > annoying to me. And the usual roster of questions gets old quickly.
> > Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> >
> >
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> Was not sure if I were going to chime in here or not. cane versus dog. I
> >> choose dog all the way. as a recent entrant into the community, and in
> >> assessing my needs from a tactile standpoint, I find the dog much better
> >> as
> >> well as expeditious for my needs. I find that when my cane taps something
> >> I
> >> am 99% inclined to reach out and touch whatever it is that is in my path.
> >> I
> >> do this for my own knowledge of what is on my path and just for the
> >> curiosity of it all. with my guide none of that ever happens. I could be
> >> walking through an obstacle course full of pot holes or pillars and never
> >> once want to nor need to know what it is I avoided. Add to that the issue
> >> of
> >> my sighted peers not seeing what they are looking at and again I choose
> >> the
> >> dog hands down. I had my cane stepped on and snapped three times in my
> >> first
> >> 4 months of being blind. that was enough experience for me to not want to
> >> use the cane. The dog for one reason or another catches the eyes of the
> >> sighted, it minimizes accidental cane breakage and it always opens the
> >> door
> >> for a dialogue or discussion where the cane sort of acts like a dome of
> >> silence which at first glance is impenetrable by the sighted community.
> >> so
> >> power to the pup for me anyway. Peace.
> >>
> >>
> >> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> >> Founder
> >> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> >> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> >> New York, New York 10004
> >> www.myblindspot.org
> >> PH: 917-553-0347
> >> Fax: 212-858-5759
> >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
> >> is
> >> doing it."
> >>
> >>
> >> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Sheila Leigland
> >> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:06 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> >>
> >> I think it depends on the situations that a person deals with daily. I do
> >> much better with a dog in snow and on ice than I did with a cane. I used
> >> a
> >> cane exclusivily until almost eleven years ago when I got my first dog.my
> >> first dog. I've known cane users that have no interest in getting a dog
> >> and
> >> that is fine. I don't know people that have lost there cane skills but
> >> I've
> >> heard of it..
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
> >> org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/underthetoaster%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:18:26 -0400
> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <0AC0995A87264DFEAB0BDF34D6BB4AC9 at meandmyarrow>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> I was a good cane user prior to getting my first dog. I do keep up cane
> skills now so that I can successfully use a cane when need be. also, at
> times, I use my cane with my dog. sometimes, if my dog has worked extra
> hard, I'll give him time off and heel him and use the cane. this way, he
> still is with me but doesn't have to work right then. I also use a cane
> with my dog sometimes when I need to pattern something and don't know quite
> how to explain things to my dog. for example, when I lived in austin,
> Texas, to get to Target from my home, at a certain point, the best place to
> turn to the right was after five telephone poles. Well, my cane and I
> counted the five poles and we did this a few times and my dog learned to
> turn right where he was supposed to turn right. In Detroit at an NFb
> convention, I was confused for some reason about the placement of rooms and
> such on the fourth floor of the hotel, so, we went to the room, got my cane,
> went to the fourth floor, and I used the cane to help figure out my
> confusion.
>
> I think most guide dog users use the cane fairly well to very well.
>
> I don't think guide dog users are any more independent than cane users.
>
> I don't think there is a debate of which is better: cane or dog. Both are
> useful ways to getting about and have their advantages and perhaps some
> disadvantages, too. it's up to the person.
>
> I do think, however, that a guide dog users needs to have a good grasp
> (pardon the pun) of cane usage and good orientation prior to getting a guide
> dog.
> Margo and Arrow
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
>
> >I used a cane for twenty-five years before getting a dog. I was very
> >independent with the cane; I am with the dog, though there are some times
> >when I don't feel so. I find it a little stressful to find a place to
> >relieve it when going to a new hotel, though I have also learned that
> >practice makes perfect. I am beginning to find that there are places where
> >the cane would be preferable--when the choir has sung, for instance. I
> >don't prefer the reaction to the dogs that I get, people interrupting my
> >discussions at dinner to ask about my dog, for instance, or speaking to the
> >dog and not to me. I knew I would feel like this when I got the first one.
> >I don't make it a point to practie with the cane any scheduled time because
> >I know I don't need to, but for the first few minutes when I do use it, it
> >is a little strange after having the dog. For a long time I felt more
> >independent with the cane to be honest. And I know there are people who
> >gained confidence using dogs and then that
> > transferred to the cane, so it is just a wide variety.
> > Cindy
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:25:04 -0400
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
> Message-ID: <8756C0A57C884888A56136DEABB63120 at JkTC4D1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thanks for letting me know I am not alone on that one Hope. It is so odd to
> tell you the truth. And then, after they actually see the dog and
> acknowledge that he is in fact a guide dog, they ask me how long I have been
> training him? When I tell them I am not training him, but actually relying
> on him as a skilled and trained service dog, the opportunity to have a
> meaningful and deliberate conversation on who looks blind and who does not,
> allows for a breakdown of socially and generationally imposed
> misperceptions about the blind and who we are. The cane never, never allows
> that to happen. Well not for me anyway.
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York 10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Hope Paulos
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 11:02 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
>
> I couldn't agree more with you, Albert. at times I go out without my dog to
> regain my cane skills. Every time I do, I feel invisible. No one talks to
> me, I feel like eeveryone's watching me and I'm the slowest person (at least
>
> I feel that way anyway). My dog provides me with so much freedom and speed.
> <smiles>
> Hope and Beignet
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike" <underthetoaster at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
>
>
> > Hi,
> > I love how you brought up the silence factor of using a cane. It's one of
> > the most irritating things in the world. People yakking away in a hallway
> > is fine but then when you get close with your cane they all hold their
> > breath and clam up like they're scared they're going to get whacked. .
> > Wouldn't it be a lot smarter if they say something to you so you know
> > where they are instead of vanishing into silence?
> > Anyway there are irritating things about canes and dogs. Everybody being
> > an expert on dogs and what to feed, how to groom, etc. advice is very
> > annoying to me. And the usual roster of questions gets old quickly.
> > Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> >
> >
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> Was not sure if I were going to chime in here or not. cane versus dog. I
> >> choose dog all the way. as a recent entrant into the community, and in
> >> assessing my needs from a tactile standpoint, I find the dog much better
> >> as
> >> well as expeditious for my needs. I find that when my cane taps something
>
> >> I
> >> am 99% inclined to reach out and touch whatever it is that is in my path.
>
> >> I
> >> do this for my own knowledge of what is on my path and just for the
> >> curiosity of it all. with my guide none of that ever happens. I could be
> >> walking through an obstacle course full of pot holes or pillars and never
> >> once want to nor need to know what it is I avoided. Add to that the issue
>
> >> of
> >> my sighted peers not seeing what they are looking at and again I choose
> >> the
> >> dog hands down. I had my cane stepped on and snapped three times in my
> >> first
> >> 4 months of being blind. that was enough experience for me to not want to
> >> use the cane. The dog for one reason or another catches the eyes of the
> >> sighted, it minimizes accidental cane breakage and it always opens the
> >> door
> >> for a dialogue or discussion where the cane sort of acts like a dome of
> >> silence which at first glance is impenetrable by the sighted community.
> >> so
> >> power to the pup for me anyway. Peace.
> >>
> >>
> >> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> >> Founder
> >> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> >> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> >> New York, New York 10004
> >> www.myblindspot.org
> >> PH: 917-553-0347
> >> Fax: 212-858-5759
> >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
> >> is
> >> doing it."
> >>
> >>
> >> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Sheila Leigland
> >> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:06 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> >>
> >> I think it depends on the situations that a person deals with daily. I do
> >> much better with a dog in snow and on ice than I did with a cane. I used
> >> a
> >> cane exclusivily until almost eleven years ago when I got my first dog.my
> >> first dog. I've known cane users that have no interest in getting a dog
> >> and
> >> that is fine. I don't know people that have lost there cane skills but
> >> I've
> >> heard of it..
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
> >> org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/underthetoaster%40gma
> il.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
> org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:26:25 -0400
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
> Message-ID: <831DA8D4BA194CDFA25CDC911710557B at JkTC4D1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Mike, that is why I thank god for the invention of the delete button. Lol.
> peace.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York 10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Mike
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:52 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
>
> Hi,
> I love how you brought up the silence factor of using a cane. It's one of
> the most irritating things in the world. People yakking away in a hallway is
>
> fine but then when you get close with your cane they all hold their breath
> and clam up like they're scared they're going to get whacked. . Wouldn't it
> be a lot smarter if they say something to you so you know where they are
> instead of vanishing into silence?
> Anyway there are irritating things about canes and dogs. Everybody being an
> expert on dogs and what to feed, how to groom, etc. advice is very annoying
> to me. And the usual roster of questions gets old quickly.
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
>
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Was not sure if I were going to chime in here or not. cane versus dog. I
> > choose dog all the way. as a recent entrant into the community, and in
> > assessing my needs from a tactile standpoint, I find the dog much better
> > as
> > well as expeditious for my needs. I find that when my cane taps something
> > I
> > am 99% inclined to reach out and touch whatever it is that is in my path.
> > I
> > do this for my own knowledge of what is on my path and just for the
> > curiosity of it all. with my guide none of that ever happens. I could be
> > walking through an obstacle course full of pot holes or pillars and never
> > once want to nor need to know what it is I avoided. Add to that the issue
> > of
> > my sighted peers not seeing what they are looking at and again I choose
> > the
> > dog hands down. I had my cane stepped on and snapped three times in my
> > first
> > 4 months of being blind. that was enough experience for me to not want to
> > use the cane. The dog for one reason or another catches the eyes of the
> > sighted, it minimizes accidental cane breakage and it always opens the
> > door
> > for a dialogue or discussion where the cane sort of acts like a dome of
> > silence which at first glance is impenetrable by the sighted community.
> > so
> > power to the pup for me anyway. Peace.
> >
> >
> > Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> > Founder
> > My Blind Spot, Inc.
> > 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> > New York, New York 10004
> > www.myblindspot.org
> > PH: 917-553-0347
> > Fax: 212-858-5759
> > "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> > doing it."
> >
> >
> > Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> > Of Sheila Leigland
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:06 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> >
> > I think it depends on the situations that a person deals with daily. I do
> > much better with a dog in snow and on ice than I did with a cane. I used a
> > cane exclusivily until almost eleven years ago when I got my first dog.my
> > first dog. I've known cane users that have no interest in getting a dog
> > and
> > that is fine. I don't know people that have lost there cane skills but
> > I've
> > heard of it..
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
> > org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/underthetoaster%40gma
> il.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
> org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:25:25 +0000
> From: "PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
> Message-ID: <AAE38548E198F64B8E345439B68CCC78125FBBCB at TSEAMB02>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Interesting response Hope.
> I used to use a dog, now I use a cane. I found that I move about more easily with the cane, and I can move in more random motions, especially when I am with my daughter and we are looking at something.
> As for people talking to me, I think people just don't know what to say with a cane. I've never had a problem starting a conversation with anybody.
> I have also found that I am able to make friends with people who are not dog people.
> I think the best way I know to think of the cane is like clothing. When I wear my space shuttle jacket, I encounter people who work in or at least follow the space program. I don't seem to encounter these people as readily when I do not have that jacket on. When I'm wearing the shirt of a band I like, I encounter other fans of that band.
> For those of you who don't like the cane, I wonder if the dislike is somehow conveyed via body language and energy level? People can feel that and respond acordingly. People are attracted to someone who is in their element
> I wonder if when those of you who don't like the cane are using it also convey the attitude that "I'm not feeling so great today".
> And, there is nothing wrong with this feeling, we all feel what we feel and like what we like.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 11:02 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
>
> I couldn't agree more with you, Albert. at times I go out without my dog to
> regain my cane skills. Every time I do, I feel invisible. No one talks to
> me, I feel like eeveryone's watching me and I'm the slowest person (at least
> I feel that way anyway). My dog provides me with so much freedom and speed.
> <smiles>
> Hope and Beignet
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike" <underthetoaster at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
>
>
> > Hi,
> > I love how you brought up the silence factor of using a cane. It's one of
> > the most irritating things in the world. People yakking away in a hallway
> > is fine but then when you get close with your cane they all hold their
> > breath and clam up like they're scared they're going to get whacked. .
> > Wouldn't it be a lot smarter if they say something to you so you know
> > where they are instead of vanishing into silence?
> > Anyway there are irritating things about canes and dogs. Everybody being
> > an expert on dogs and what to feed, how to groom, etc. advice is very
> > annoying to me. And the usual roster of questions gets old quickly.
> > Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> >
> >
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> Was not sure if I were going to chime in here or not. cane versus dog. I
> >> choose dog all the way. as a recent entrant into the community, and in
> >> assessing my needs from a tactile standpoint, I find the dog much better
> >> as
> >> well as expeditious for my needs. I find that when my cane taps something
> >> I
> >> am 99% inclined to reach out and touch whatever it is that is in my path.
> >> I
> >> do this for my own knowledge of what is on my path and just for the
> >> curiosity of it all. with my guide none of that ever happens. I could be
> >> walking through an obstacle course full of pot holes or pillars and never
> >> once want to nor need to know what it is I avoided. Add to that the issue
> >> of
> >> my sighted peers not seeing what they are looking at and again I choose
> >> the
> >> dog hands down. I had my cane stepped on and snapped three times in my
> >> first
> >> 4 months of being blind. that was enough experience for me to not want to
> >> use the cane. The dog for one reason or another catches the eyes of the
> >> sighted, it minimizes accidental cane breakage and it always opens the
> >> door
> >> for a dialogue or discussion where the cane sort of acts like a dome of
> >> silence which at first glance is impenetrable by the sighted community.
> >> so
> >> power to the pup for me anyway. Peace.
> >>
> >>
> >> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> >> Founder
> >> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> >> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> >> New York, New York 10004
> >> www.myblindspot.org
> >> PH: 917-553-0347
> >> Fax: 212-858-5759
> >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
> >> is
> >> doing it."
> >>
> >>
> >> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Sheila Leigland
> >> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:06 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> >>
> >> I think it depends on the situations that a person deals with daily. I do
> >> much better with a dog in snow and on ice than I did with a cane. I used
> >> a
> >> cane exclusivily until almost eleven years ago when I got my first dog.my
> >> first dog. I've known cane users that have no interest in getting a dog
> >> and
> >> that is fine. I don't know people that have lost there cane skills but
> >> I've
> >> heard of it..
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
> >> org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/underthetoaster%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:08:55 -0700
> From: Tami Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [Bulk] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <1308586135.1935.6.camel at tamara-desktop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Cheryl,
>
> Agreed. I'm still thinking about my answer while I wake up enough to
> make sense, but I will get to it. But it is a good question, and after
> all the discussions of the topic I've gotten to read and then answer as
> i started to figure it out, I still find I learn something new from what
> other guide dog users have to say in a new discussion. Young guide dog
> users (by age or by length of guide dog use) will always be asking -- at
> least the smart ones will.
>
> So a guide dog user like Julie and the friend with whom she is
> discussing the matter will be less likely to be caught flat-footed when
> her dog gets an owie. As opposed to being one of those people who
> appears on the news to be quoted as saying, "I can't leave the house
> without my dog who gives me independence..."
>
> On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 06:44 -0400, cheryl echevarria wrote:
> > Again, she is asking a question, I think it is a fair one.
> >
> >
> > Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
> >
> > Cheryl Echevarria
> > http://www.echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
> > 631-456-5394
> > reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
> >
> > Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
> >
> > Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise & Travel, Inc.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: B Avila Guerrero<mailto:guerrero.avila at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 6:22 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] [Bulk] a cane and dog discussion
> >
> >
> > Julie, with all due respect,
> > What difference does it make what we think? What matters is what works for
> > you and how you will travel best, be safe and as independent as you want to
> > be.
> >
> > I have been on two lists of Dog guide users for the past few months, and so
> > far, and I don't mean to insult any one, but what I have found are very
> > judgmental and opinionated people.
> >
> > My advice and take it for what it is worth, work with your dog, your school
> > and do what is best for you.
> > Bertha
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> > Of Julie McGinnity
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:46 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: [Bulk] [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> >
> > Hello everyone.
> >
> > It is very late, so I hope I make sense as I pose the following
> > discussion to you. A friend and I are engaged in an interesting
> > arguement. We are talking about guide dog users and how much they use
> > their canes and a few other things. I'd just like to pose a few
> > questions. (Some of them may seem rather basic.)
> >
> > Do you think that guide dog users are just as independent as cane
> > users when it comes to travelling?
> >
> > Do you think you lose cane skills if you use a dog the majority of the
> > time?
> >
> >
> > Do you think that the majority of dog handlers are bad cane users?
> >
> > I know these are really general questions, and if you can't answer
> > them with direct answers, please, just your observations or
> > experiences will suffice. I'm just very curious about this. I want
> > to know what people think, and I don't really want to seem too
> > invested in this or as though I am taking a side. I'm pretty young
> > and a relatively new guide dog user, so I know there are things I
> > don't know and haven't seen yet. I'm more interested in what you guys
> > say.
> >
> > Thanks. Sorry if my late night/early morning ramblings make no sense.
> >
> > --
> > Julie McG
> > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> > Eyes for the Blind
> >
> > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> > life."
> > John 3:16
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/guerrero.avila%40sbcg<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/guerrero.avila%40sbcg>
> > lobal.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com>
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tamara.8024%40comcast.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:32:13 -0700
> From: Tami Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion
> Message-ID: <1308587533.1886.13.camel at tamara-desktop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Dan,
>
> You are just plain grouchy. /grin/ Honestly, the cane vs. dog discussion
> can turn judgmental on all sides in a heartbeat, so grouchiness seems to
> be a reasonable response to me. /grin/
>
> Still... Intelligent discussion is possible, and I'm kind of a nut about
> free flow of ideas and knowledge and... So now that I'm getting old and
> jaded, I try to keep a grip and remember that the decision for each
> individual is an important one, whether it's to go guide dog in the
> first place or to begin to figure out where your cane does or does not
> fit in once you've made the switch...
>
> Okay, I'm starting to wake up and figure out what I do about O&M when
> I'm not sitting stupidly in front of my computer... /lol/ Good to see
> you back on the list.
>
> Tami
>
>
>
> On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 08:12 -0400, Dan Weiner wrote:
> > Hi, Julie.
> >
> > First of all, welcome to the world of guide dogs.
> > I've been off the list for some time so I don't know if you've written about
> > your experiences so if you haven't , I'd love to hear what prompted you to
> > get a guide dog and how it's been.
> >
> > My name is Dan Weiner, pronounced to rhyme with "miner"--smile--and I've
> > used guide dogs for 17 years.
> >
> > All right, here's my answer and it may sound like I'm being a grouch:
> > Who cares--smile.
> > This cane and dog controversy has been around for years and years and I
> > honestly couldn't care less about the answer to those questions.
> > What works for one person doesn't work for another... I don't judge people
> > on their O and M skills so much as on what type of person they are, unlike,
> > it would seem, a lot of my fellow blind people.
> >
> > If people get a dog, it's obvious that for some reason the cane wasn't doing
> > it for them.
> >
> > If they decide to use a cane, then it's clear that they for some reason
> > don't want or need a dog--lol.
> >
> > Now, in real life I'm a very nice person, so don't let my answer turn you
> > off--smile.
> >
> >
> > Dan and the Carter Dog
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tamara.8024%40comcast.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 10:47:51 -0600
> From: Sheila Leigland <sleigland at bresnan.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a cane and dog discussion (cane silence)
> Message-ID: <auto-000288653173 at fe-2.cluster1.bresnan.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Mike, your right about that. Advice gets old. When I retired my first dog and went back to the cane until I could get a new dog, the only conversations at work were where is your dog. It seemed without my dog noone spoke much to me. It's painful to know that if you carry a cane it seems to make you somehow not approachaaable.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>
>
> End of nagdu Digest, Vol 75, Issue 24
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