[nagdu] shock collars used on service dogs

[Lyn Gwizdak]

Oh yeah, Marion about the electric fences and the hidden fences.

My sister has an electric fence around her horse corral - it freaked out one 
of her dogs when it touched the fence!  But that dog never touched it again!

One of the things I don't like about the hidden fence is that it may keep 
your dog in but it won't keep other dogs out!  I read a horrible story about 
a dog who was confined in its yard with this device and another dog came 
along and went into the yard and it attacked the resident dog almost killing 
the dog. I prefer the regular fences and having an electric wire running 
around it as well - keeps your dog in and other dogs out.

Around here, people have "Coyote rollers" that are placed along the top of a 
fence.  If a coyote tried to get into the yard, the roller prevents it from 
getting a grip on the fence to launch itself inside with your livestock or 
dogs.  I hear it works pretty well.

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] shock collars used on service dogs


> Lyn,
>    I have a friend with a very large piece of property and three dogs. He 
> uses an invisible fence. It is my understanding that the shock the dog 
> gets is not very intense; sort of like touching your tongue to a 9-volt 
> battery. Now, I must admit I am not a masochist but I touch my tongue to 
> 9-volt batteries quite regularly to check their charge for my microphone. 
> It doesn't hurt but I don't leave it there for much longer than 1/2 
> second. I suppose the dog wouldn't let the shock continue very long! The 
> collar of the invisible fence also gives off a beeping sound when the dog 
> approaches the perimeter and learns that the next thing after the beep is 
> the shock.
>    Now, I once had a very large German Shepherd that would climb my fence 
> and nothing we did would keep him in. Until, that is, we installed an 
> electric fence. The first time he touched the wire, he yelped. But he 
> never climbed the fence again! I touched the wire and got a jolt myself 
> just to see what the dog would experience. I never tried it again, either!
>    This dog would also run back and forth along a portion of the fence 
> line with the neighbors dog. this created a rut about 10 feet long, three 
> feet wide and two feet deep. I took a wire that was not electrified and 
> strung it between two chairs. The dog looked at it and I could see it in 
> his eyes! "No way, Jose!"I filled in the rut and never worried about it 
> again!
>    My point is that I don't think shock collars are inhumane when used 
> correctly. Furthermore, I am of the opinion that service animal users 
> should have the right to own their dogs and not be subject to arbitrary 
> rules of how a program believes a dog should be treated. This is not to 
> say that I believe one has the right to treat their dog inhumanely or 
> otherwise abuse or neglect the dog. At the same time, I do not feel a 
> training program should be able to dictate what type of food a dog eats, 
> should expect a consumer to allow them unfettered access to their dog, 
> require the consumer to purchase insurance, and require them to send them 
> annual health records. All of these requirements open the door to 
> consumers being harrassed, intimidated, and otherwise treated custodially 
> or paternalistically. Such treatment is not in the best interest of the 
> consumer nor is it in the best interest of the training program. If a 
> training program wants to ensure the teams they train are doing well, they 
> must treat the consumer as the adults they are. If a program has the right 
> to repossess a dog, consumers will be hesitant to advise them of problems 
> they are having for fear they will have their dogs taken from them.
>    If a program feels as if the dog is being mistreated through abuse or 
> neglect, there are laws in place in every jurisdiction to ensure this does 
> not happen and with rules of due process to protect the consumer from 
> arbitrary interference. If CCI were to have contacted animal control 
> authorities about the use of the shock collar, they would most likely have 
> investigated it and found there was no abuse. On the other hand, CCI made 
> a decision and are not bound by rules of due process. I don't know all of 
> the facts, but the real abuse here seems to be perpetrated by CCI against 
> this consumer.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 1:54 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] shock collars used on service dogs
>
>
>> Yeah, these collars come in several types.  There's one that works with 
>> an electric "hidden" fence.  A wire is embedded in the ground aroound the 
>> perimeter of your yard.  A collar is on the dog with a part that has a 
>> couple of blunt prongs that rest against the dog's throat. When the dog 
>> passes over the embedded wire, it gets a shock and learns to avoid going 
>> over that area.  Nasty.
>>
>> The one the CCI grad used is another kind that looks similar to the fence 
>> one - with the same type of prongs.  The owner holds a little device that 
>> remotely sends a shock to the dog when it doesn't obey a command or 
>> barks. Nasty!  I see these things for sale in all the dog supply catalogs 
>> and I wouldn't use these.  I'll bet alot of dogs get freaked out by these 
>> as people can just buy these things and not have a clue as to what these 
>> things can do to a dog emotionally.  Cruelty.
>>
>> I've seen CCI dogs and I don't think they condone the use of these 
>> devices at all.  This spring - usually the first or second Saturday in 
>> April - at their Woofstock, I'll ask about this.  Our dog food man 
>> usually has a booth there and I'll find out when this event is so we can 
>> go.  I've gone to this event twice.  There are TONS of service dogs and 
>> some pet dogs as well.  Dog distraction city! LOL! Great practice for the 
>> dogs and fun for us.
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 9:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Appeal denied,service dog will not be returned to 
>> Utah man
>>
>>
>>> Shock collar? Just the thought shocks me. I'm troubled about using 
>>> Bernie's prong collar, yet I do, but, to use a shock collar? My dog 
>>> would crumble.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 12:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Appeal denied,service dog will not be returned to 
>>> Utah man
>>>
>>>
>>>> Quite interesting article and the reader responses.
>>>>
>>>> This is another thing to show that ownership needs to be given to the 
>>>> disabled person. There are ways to take dogs away from real abuse or 
>>>> neglect situations.  Glad I own Landon!
>>>>
>>>> Maybe CCI has some points as well. Because of the very long waiting 
>>>> list, people receiving service dogs really need to be using the dog as 
>>>> trained. Tough call. Shock collars????  I would think these would 
>>>> create a problem in a sensitive dog.  I don't know of any service or 
>>>> guide program that condones them.
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 9:55 AM
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Appeal denied, service dog will not be returned to 
>>>> Utah man
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Appeal denied, service dog will not be returned to Utah man
>>>>> Published: Friday, Feb. 25, 2011 4:16 p.m. MST
>>>>> By Viviane Vo-Duc, Deseret News
>>>>> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705367506/Appeal-denied-servic
>>>>> e-dog-will-not-be-returned-to-Utah-man.html
>>>>> 16 comments     PRINT | FONT + -  SALT LAKE CITY - A man who had
>>>>> his companion dog taken away will not be getting him back any
>>>>> time soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Gael Yonnet's service dog Elon was taken away a month ago by
>>>>> Canine Companions for Independence - the organization that
>>>>> partnered him with the yellow Labrador retriever.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the time, the organization said Yonnet's lifestyle and job
>>>>> were endangering the dog because he didn't keep Elon on a leash,
>>>>> especially on trips to the mountains.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gael Yonnet, Family photo
>>>>> Dr. Gael Yonnet, seen with his service dog, Elon, in December of
>>>>> 2009, was paralyzed in a snowboarding accident in 2006. In 2009,
>>>>> he received a service dog from Canine Companions for
>>>>> Independence. The organization recently took the dog away from
>>>>> Yonnet.
>>>>>>From the archive
>>>>> .Man's companion dog taken away in Utah; organization said dog in
>>>>> danger - Feb. 4, 2011
>>>>> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705365793/Mans-companion-dog-t
>>>>> aken-away-in-Utah-organization-said-dog-in-danger.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Yonnet said he understood their concern, especially after hearing
>>>>> the dog was not on a leash at all times. But he claims Elon was
>>>>> never in danger.
>>>>>
>>>>> He submitted an appeal, which included an iPetition with more
>>>>> than 5,000 Utahns supporting the dog's return.
>>>>>
>>>>> In a letter sent to Yonnet, Corey Hudson, CEO of CCI, said after
>>>>> reviewing the details of the case the staff had good reason to
>>>>> believe Elon's safety was in jeopardy and to take the dog back.
>>>>>
>>>>> "You repeatedly allowed Elon to be off lead in unenclosed and
>>>>> urban environments, which is a serious safety concern for CCI."
>>>>> Hudson said.
>>>>>
>>>>> He also said Yonnet was very confrontational and, at one time,
>>>>> had a electronic collar on Elon, which was a serious breach of
>>>>> CCI's standards for treatment of its dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yonnet can appeal the decision to the national board of Canine
>>>>> Companions for Independence, which he plans to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Elon is currently being taken care of by a foster family, which
>>>>> Yonnet says doesn't make sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> "He doesn't need a loving foster home," he said. "What he needs
>>>>> is his loving home, his own family, which is me."
>>>>>
>>>>> In March of 2006, Yonnet had a snowboarding accident, which left
>>>>> him paralyzed from the waist down.
>>>>>
>>>>> He said Elon was trained to assist him with tasks, such as
>>>>> switching lights on and off, retrieving objects from the floor
>>>>> and opening doors.
>>>>>
>>>>> While he has been offered another service dog from a different
>>>>> organization, Yonnet says he just wants his "baby" back.
>>>>>
>>>>> E-mail: vvo-duc at ksl.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> COMMENTS (17)
>>>>> lost in DC | 4:05 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>>>>> West Jordan, UT
>>>>> too bad the dog is valued more than the person
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 5 Ute Fan In Utah | 4:34 p.m. Feb. 25,
>>>>> 2011
>>>>> West Jordan, UT
>>>>> The man breached the contract he had agreed to with the company.
>>>>> I don't blame them for taking Elon, I would have sooner if I had
>>>>> invested so much money into a dog. They make it pretty clear that
>>>>> the dog is not yours when they lend it to you.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 5 Sarah B | 4:50 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>>>>> SLC, UT
>>>>> I agree with Ute Fan. This is a highly educated adult who is
>>>>> fully capable of understanding and following the rules. It takes
>>>>> alot to train these dogs and there is a great need. If he can't
>>>>> play by the rules, then he doesn't get to play. The fact that he
>>>>> abused the dog by using a shock collar is grounds enough to take
>>>>> the dog away.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd have much more sympathy if it was someone who was also
>>>>> mentally impaired. Rebellion gets no sympathy from me. He made
>>>>> his choices, despite warnings and now he has to deal with the
>>>>> consequences.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 4 Jim A | 5:09 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>>>>> Porter Ranch, California
>>>>> I have a conflicting opinion here. First, CCI doesn't charge for
>>>>> their dogs so point 1 for CCI. Second, the use of a shock collar
>>>>> on a service Dog is reprehensible under any circumstance. If this
>>>>> gentleman did in fact use a shock collar on this dog, that would
>>>>> be grounds for removal in my book. As for the off-lead part, that
>>>>> kind of depends. Sometimes a Service Dog's tasks require him to
>>>>> be off lead for a short period of time, and in a city atmosphere
>>>>> it could be very dangerous for the dog to be off lead. that said,
>>>>> if he was letting the dog off-lead in the mountains when hiking,
>>>>> as originally reported, I see less of an issue with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> All in all, assuming the facts presented in this story are
>>>>> accurate, I have to support CCI's decision. These animals cost
>>>>> way to much to train for someone to be mistreating it with a
>>>>> shock collar or taking unnecessary risks it in a city
>>>>> environment.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 3 UU Fan | 5:25 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>>>>> Salt Lake City, UT
>>>>> I agree with Sarah. Dr Y wants his "baby" back but takes no
>>>>> responsibility for the fact that he is the reason that the dog
>>>>> was taken away despite repeated warnings. Off leash, shock
>>>>> collars, I'm appalled. I'm glad the organization is able to
>>>>> monitor the health and safety of their graduate teams and proceed
>>>>> to do the right thing.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 4 Beth38 | 7:05 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>>>>> Brockton, MA
>>>>> I am so glad that CCI cares enough about their dogs to remove
>>>>> Elon from such an irresponsible and vindictive man. He learned
>>>>> the rules during his two weeks at training to get the dog. He
>>>>> KNEW that the dog would remain CCI's dog, for reasons exactly
>>>>> like this one. He SIGNED a contract stating that he agreed with
>>>>> everything set forth in training, and with the understanding that
>>>>> they maintain ownership. Instead of working with the school when
>>>>> given opportunities, he CHOSE to ignore them and yet he cried
>>>>> foul when the dog was removed. Instead of handling this in a
>>>>> mature manner privately with the organization, he has chosen to
>>>>> lie to the general public about the situation on his numerous
>>>>> webpages as well as attempt. Anyone who wants to read the truth
>>>>> can visit CCI's website. And to those of you who humanize dog's
>>>>> emotions and think that poor Elon must be so sad: dogs don't
>>>>> think like we do. They don't mourn people. They don't look back.
>>>>> Think about it. Do you think Elon mourned his puppy raiser when
>>>>> the "good" doctor got him? Um. No.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 4 DisabilityAdvocate | 8:22 p.m. Feb.
>>>>> 25, 2011
>>>>> Alexandria, VA
>>>>> Regarding "Anyone who wants to read the truth can visit CCI's
>>>>> website", would you go to one half of a dispute to get unbiased
>>>>> information?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the arguments regarding the contract, it does not state
>>>>> that the dog has to be on leash at all times. It does say that
>>>>> local leash and licensing laws need to be followed, and they
>>>>> were. Further, the ADA provides for service dogs being off leash
>>>>> but under voice control.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Yonnet is an inspiration to many disabled people. To take
>>>>> away a paraplegic's dog because he was off leash on rural
>>>>> mountain trails and in the hospital is sad. To further show
>>>>> pictures on your website (as CCI has done) of other dogs off
>>>>> leash in various environments and in another hospital makes this
>>>>> even more concerning. How is Dr. Yonnet's hospital and recreation
>>>>> more dangerous than that of other CCI graduates?
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 7 Krizzle | 12:09 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>>>>> Sandy, UT
>>>>> To UoU Fan: Gael did in fact take responsiblity that a certain
>>>>> times he did not have Elon leashed (of course many of those times
>>>>> were due to safety reasons). Cesar Millan has in the past
>>>>> supported the use of shock collars. They are a great use for
>>>>> obedience training if used properly. And to Beth who thinks
>>>>> everyone is consumed at humanizing Elon by associating them with
>>>>> human emotions: animals do mourn. Elon knows he's not with Gael.
>>>>> He's not receiving the same love and devotion that Gael gave him.
>>>>> Elon was never in trouble.
>>>>> Too many times I see animals out there being abused, neglected,
>>>>> taken advantage of. And Gael who treats this dog with the utmost
>>>>> respect gets him ripped out of his arms. CCI has done good for
>>>>> many people but this one situation they've handled horribly.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 ADA prevails | 12:54 a.m. Feb. 26,
>>>>> 2011
>>>>> Eastport, MD
>>>>> (1) There are numerous pictures on CCI's own web site and CCI's
>>>>> own videos that show dogs leash free outside; some of which are
>>>>> clearly in public areas. There are clearly two standards: one for
>>>>> CCI and one for Dr. Yonnet. This does bring to question CCI's
>>>>> motives or prejudice, perhaps?
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) CCI's leash requirements are a violationws of the Americans
>>>>> with Disabilities Act (ADA), which provides latitude on leash
>>>>> requirements for persons in wheelchairs. And, ADA prevails unless
>>>>> a state law or contract provides more freedom for the person in
>>>>> the wheelchair...not the dog. The law protects the disabled
>>>>> first.
>>>>>
>>>>> (3) I could not, in good conscience, recommend that anyone get a
>>>>> dog from CCI given the way they have treated Dr. Yonnet. It was
>>>>> obvious in the pictures that Elon was very happy with Gael. It
>>>>> was also obvious how much Gael loved Elon. To break these two up
>>>>> has now devastated both Gael and Elon. It is absolutely cold and
>>>>> heartless the way this was handled. I would never suppport nor
>>>>> encourage supporting CCI given this case. CCI has no heart if it
>>>>> can do this.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Beth38 | 12:55 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>>>>> Brockton, MA
>>>>> Being an inspiration to disabled people has nothing to do with
>>>>> this matter. And honestly, I am a disabled person and he sickens
>>>>> me with the poor way he has chosen to deal with this issue. The
>>>>> dog is not his and never was. He had numerous opportunities to
>>>>> work with the school to take care of safety issues and he didn't.
>>>>> He didn't follow what he was told to do by the school that loaned
>>>>> him this dog.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 2 Sharon Kenzer | 1:37 a.m. Feb. 26,
>>>>> 2011
>>>>> Eastport, MD
>>>>> Dr. Yonnet and Elon were a family and an inspiration to so many
>>>>> people, including the veterans that were patients of Dr. Yonnet.
>>>>> While dealing with their own disabilities, it was extremely
>>>>> inspiring to see the full life that Gael was living with Elon.
>>>>> Elon inspired Gael to be active again, which gave hope to so many
>>>>> patients dealing with their own disabilities. Elon gave such
>>>>> comfort to many people, including patients, but mostly to Elon.
>>>>> To think that CCI would repo this dog for a fear of what could
>>>>> happen is tragic. Would one keep a child on a leash? When one
>>>>> fully reads Dr. Yonnet's explanation of what transpired, which
>>>>> has been consistent, there is no doubt he exercised good judgment
>>>>> for Elon's safety at all times.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last, comments by CCI supporters repeatedly refer to their leash
>>>>> requirements, however, there are CCI videos and CCI pictures
>>>>> where dogs are leash free in public areas. The more I read about
>>>>> this, the greater the injustice perpetrated on Gael and Elon. I
>>>>> don't believe for a minute that Elon isn't suffering the loss of
>>>>> Gael. CCI should return Elon.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Love Dogs | 1:50 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>>>>> Tarzana, CA
>>>>> I applaud Canine Companions for Independance (CCI) for their
>>>>> decision to remove Elon from Gael. Tbe public statement from CCI
>>>>> can be read on their website on this issue....and for sure, it
>>>>> appears that they do not make a decision like this on a whim,
>>>>> only one in 500 dogs partnered are taken back. It is sad to learn
>>>>> that Gael chose to go public in such a dishonest and arrogant
>>>>> way, and now loose his dog. In my heart I was praying that he
>>>>> would have the sense to listen and talk to the amazing folks who
>>>>> trained Elon, and appreciate the tremendous gift he was given.
>>>>> His refusal to respect this highly trained dog after he received
>>>>> it and his continued arrogant public threats lead me to applaud
>>>>> CCI for their final decision. Thankful for what this amazing
>>>>> non-profit does to help so many disabled Americans....
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 1 Ann Mc Dowell | 2:10 a.m. Feb. 26,
>>>>> 2011
>>>>> New York, NY
>>>>> Gael and Elon were an inspiration to so many of the patients in
>>>>> the hospital, particularly the veterans with disabilties and
>>>>> traumatic brain injuries who were Gael's patients. They gave so
>>>>> many people hope that they could live fully active lives.
>>>>>
>>>>> CCI's Form 990, as filed with the IRS for 2009, Schedule O
>>>>> Supplemental Information (page 34) stated:
>>>>> "TAsks performed by instructors at follow-up visitation include:
>>>>> 2) Correction of any problems that may exist;
>>>>> 5) Making certain that the dog is doing the commands initially
>>>>> taught, and that they are still needed; and
>>>>> 6) Beginning the process of teaching new commands, if deemed
>>>>> necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gael requested additional training from Simi in late December of
>>>>> 2010. When a date was set for 1/29/10, Gael was looking forward
>>>>> to meeting with Simi as he was told it was to help with items 2,
>>>>> 5, 6 above. In fact, Gael took the day off from meeting with his
>>>>> patients in order to train with Elon. Instead, Simi offered no
>>>>> training or education and quickly informed Gael that they were
>>>>> there to take Elon. That's the last time Gael saw Elon; tragic
>>>>> for both Gael and Elon.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 SanB | 4:36 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>>>>> Jupiter, FL
>>>>> I have been following this story closely, and still feel that CCI
>>>>> and Dr. Yonnet can resolves the issues at hand. Through all of
>>>>> the anger and emotion (and we ALL have acted out in both) the
>>>>> bottom line is, CCI raised an awesome companion dog, Dr. Yonnet
>>>>> has bonded with Elon, loves him dearly, and was not abusing the
>>>>> dog. I have read in earlier posts, Dr. Yonnet has set out to
>>>>> acquire a new leash (made specifically for people in wheelchairs
>>>>> that are active) that will allow him to take Elon on his mountain
>>>>> trips, which will take care of the safety concerns as expressed
>>>>> by CCI. I have to agree with DisabilityAdvocate above, I have
>>>>> browsed CCI's website, and have seen the same pictures with other
>>>>> dogs off leash, so are those dogs getting ready to be repo'd as
>>>>> well? We have all experienced loss, and death, and have probably
>>>>> even uttered the words "I'd do anything to get them back".
>>>>> Fortunately, in this case, there is still time to get them back,
>>>>> with a very clear mutual understanding of what is expected. Just
>>>>> Love!
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Angelo John Stevens | 6:51 a.m. Feb.
>>>>> 26, 2011
>>>>> Fort Belvoir, VA
>>>>> I am going to be polite, after fighting a school system in VA who
>>>>> seems to feel they can have a policy that Names ADI, an affiliate
>>>>> of CCI as the sole God to all Dog training and certifications, I
>>>>> have to say I see something fishy with CCI and ADI, more so when
>>>>> an agency feels even with all the good they do, that they are
>>>>> above the law.
>>>>> They have rules which are not enforced across the board, and seem
>>>>> to pick and choose who they enforce them on, based on how much
>>>>> aide and or help that person can give to their fund rasing
>>>>> efforts, their 50,000 dollar dogs does not mean their better dogs
>>>>> then a 20,000 dog, plain and simple.
>>>>> Servioce Dogs should be controllable on and off a leash, because
>>>>> facts and nature dictate there will be places and times these
>>>>> dogs need to be off leash in order to perform their functions.
>>>>> ADA and DOJ have already stated they agree leashs are not
>>>>> required for certain instances where it is unsafe to use a leash,
>>>>> however if dogs can be controlled either with voice, or hand.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Angelo John Stevens | 7:06 a.m. Feb.
>>>>> 26, 2011
>>>>> Fort Belvoir, VA
>>>>> I am still curious why CCI retains owner ship of the dog yet
>>>>> claims they give dogs for free, giving implies you no longer own
>>>>> that which is given, should not the term instead be, We loan
>>>>> service dogs to persons, but at any time may remove that dog if
>>>>> we CCI feel you are too dangerous for that loaned dog to be in,
>>>>> and then we will lie to you to meet at a mall, in order to train
>>>>> you and your dog, but instead will take the dog from you, and not
>>>>> ensure you the disabled person will get home safely, and threaten
>>>>> you with the police as well, lets not also forget these are the
>>>>> same people that want to work with wounded warriors and veterans,
>>>>> our suicide rate is high enough in the military we do not need
>>>>> CCI re-poing dogs from them to add fuel to that fire.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 1000observer | 9:59 a.m. Feb. 26,
>>>>> 2011
>>>>> Alexandria, Va
>>>>> First, CCI makes perfectly clear that they retain ownership of
>>>>> their dogs. It is in every agreement that every graduate,
>>>>> including the person in question, signs before accepting a CCI
>>>>> dog. If you don't like it, don't accept a CCI dog. There are many
>>>>> people on CCI waiting lists willing to accept the terms CCI has,
>>>>> and if you accept a CCI dog, and not the terms CCI has, you are
>>>>> taking that dog away from someone else who might have benefited
>>>>> from a CCI dog. Another SLC TV site has a story posted and on it
>>>>> is a link to the letter from CCI to Dr. Yonnet. After reading
>>>>> this letter, any sympathy I had for the doctor on this issue has
>>>>> disappeared. I leave it to everyone to read the letter, but it
>>>>> seems from the letter that CCI did everything it could to solve
>>>>> the issue at hand, and it is not just about leash and off leash
>>>>> rules. Shame that Dr. Yonnet and his supporters prefer to attack
>>>>> CCI than work with them to find a solution.
>>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nagdu:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.net