[nagdu] Appeal denied, service dog will not be returned to Utah man

Wed Mar 2 21:52:50 UTC 2011

Hey, Tami,
Now I'm curious about what CCI thinks of the shock collars.  they have a 
fundraising event here in town and tons of their graduates are there along 
with the school folks.  I'll just have to ask about this - that is if I 
remember! LOL!

I do know that they teach stuff off leash because sometimes the dog needs to 
be off leash to do a task for the owner.  the dog isn't actually off leash - 
the owner drops it so the dog can go get something and then come back to the 
owner.

Recently, a guy in a wheelchair came on the bus I was on.  I felt Landon 
sniffing the air eagerly and wondered why he was interested in someone's 
wheelchair coming into the spot opposite of where we were sitting.  Well, on 
comes this Golden Retriever who was the guy's service dog.  Don't know what 
school it was from but that dog stood still where the man told it to stand 
while the bus driver tied the wheelchair in place.  then he called the dog 
to him.  That dog stayed right there even though Landon was probably 
visually trying it entice it to come over to meet him.  Nice dog and very 
nicely trained!

I really liked the stories about the dogs barking blasting out the sensor on 
the citrinella collars that spray into the dog's face.  Hahahahaha!  Funny 
dogs!  And smart - maybe you think they're too smart! LOL!!

Take care,

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Appeal denied,service dog will not be returned to Utah 
man

> Lyn and Lisa,
>
> Well, I am definitely not pro shock collar, but...  Just as with a prong
> collar, if used responsibly they can be an effective training tool and not
> abusive.  The few trainers I know who do use them, do so to train 
> off-leash
> obedience and just to give themselves a mean of control at a distance in
> case they need that to ensure the safety of the dog.  One woman I know who
> decided that for her dog she would have to try using a shock collar tried 
> it
> on her own bare neck first, just to see what it would feel like to the 
> dog.
> /smile/  On the lowest setting, it was not uncomfortable, really, she
> decided, just slightly unpleasant.  And it did work to put a stop to the
> unwanted behavior, clearly without causing the dog any sign of emotional
> distress.
>
> So I guess based upon observation and consideration, I've been forced to
> conclude that the use of such a collar does not automatically equal abuse.
> It's the person holding the controls who determines whether the tool is
> abusive or not.
>
> But you're both right about judging the dog, too.  DD and I have discussed
> the notion of using a shock collar on Daisy to deal with barking in the
> yard.  This was a couple of years ago now, and I was of the firm belief 
> that
> her anxiety issues were still too present and too strong for that to be a
> good option.  What she needed -- and still needs -- is pure positive
> reinforcement.  We did try the citronella collar, and even that was too 
> much
> for her delicate nerves right at first.  Then it was effective for awhile
> until she and Mitzi discovered that Daisy's bark is loud enough to blow 
> out
> the sensors in the collar.  /lol/  Well, Mitzi certainly figured that out
> and was willing to put up with being sprayed in the process just to prove 
> a
> point.  My curly girl is at least as stubborn as she is clever.  Sigh.  We
> had the same results when DD insisted on trying the Bark Off.  It did work
> briefly until Daisy's bark blew out the sensor.  Then Daisy barked more 
> for
> awhile, so that ended that.
>
> So training continues, and we have successes and even great leaps of
> improvement in the old dog.  In fact, she seems to have made a leap this
> week in achieving greater quietude.  For nearly 11 years, that's pretty 
> darn
> good of her.  /smile/
>
> Overall, I prefer training, whenever possible, to using a tool that 
> supplies
> negative reinforcement, even mildly.  While my friend who tried the shock
> collar on herself first was debating the possibility of using one for her
> dog's safety issue, I ruled out the possibility of using one myself based 
> on
> visual impairment.  I just didn't think I could use it effectively as a
> training tool if I couldn't see the behavior I was trying to prevent 
> coming.
> And Mitzi really isn't a good candidate, either, since she does so much
> better with positive reinforcement or more subtle means of negative
> reinforcement, like embarrassing her by having to call her down for bad
> behavior or simply cramping her style by restricting her freedom.  /smile/
>
> Anyway, that's just another way of looking at how the shock collar might 
> fit
> in for the CCI dog's off leash safety, depending on the handler and how he
> uses it.
>
> As for the dog's being allowed and trained off leash by the handler 
> goes...
> It sounds like there is a contract that specifically prohibits allowing 
> the
> dogs off leash even if you own them.  This may limit the handler's 
> recourse
> when it comes to trying to use the legal system to get the dog back.  I'm
> guessing there, but that's how it sounds to me from the few details I've
> read.
>
> As for my opinion on the subject of conditional ownership...  That's a 
> whole
> 'nother can of worms!  If I decide to go through a program in the future, 
> I
> will have to evaluate potential programs on the basis of what the contract
> granting me ownership entails, because I do plan to abide by the contract,
> or to work out minor details with the training staff as others appear to
> have done.  In the meantime, I enjoy and full and unconditional ownership 
> of
> my C.R.A.P. trained dog, along with the sole responsibility for making 
> good
> decisions for her.  /smile/
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Lyn Gwizdak
> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 12:46 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Appeal denied,service dog will not be returned to 
> Utah
> man
>
> Quite interesting article and the reader responses.
>
> This is another thing to show that ownership needs to be given to the
> disabled person. There are ways to take dogs away from real abuse or 
> neglect
>
> situations.  Glad I own Landon!
>
> Maybe CCI has some points as well. Because of the very long waiting list,
> people receiving service dogs really need to be using the dog as trained.
> Tough call. Shock collars????  I would think these would create a problem 
> in
>
> a sensitive dog.  I don't know of any service or guide program that 
> condones
>
> them.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 9:55 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Appeal denied, service dog will not be returned to Utah 
> man
>
>
>> Appeal denied, service dog will not be returned to Utah man
>> Published: Friday, Feb. 25, 2011 4:16 p.m. MST
>> By Viviane Vo-Duc, Deseret News
>> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705367506/Appeal-denied-servic
>> e-dog-will-not-be-returned-to-Utah-man.html
>> 16 comments     PRINT | FONT + -  SALT LAKE CITY - A man who had
>> his companion dog taken away will not be getting him back any
>> time soon.
>>
>> Dr. Gael Yonnet's service dog Elon was taken away a month ago by
>> Canine Companions for Independence - the organization that
>> partnered him with the yellow Labrador retriever.
>>
>> At the time, the organization said Yonnet's lifestyle and job
>> were endangering the dog because he didn't keep Elon on a leash,
>> especially on trips to the mountains.
>>
>> Gael Yonnet, Family photo
>> Dr. Gael Yonnet, seen with his service dog, Elon, in December of
>> 2009, was paralyzed in a snowboarding accident in 2006. In 2009,
>> he received a service dog from Canine Companions for
>> Independence. The organization recently took the dog away from
>> Yonnet.
>>>From the archive
>> .Man's companion dog taken away in Utah; organization said dog in
>> danger - Feb. 4, 2011
>> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705365793/Mans-companion-dog-t
>> aken-away-in-Utah-organization-said-dog-in-danger.html
>>
>> Yonnet said he understood their concern, especially after hearing
>> the dog was not on a leash at all times. But he claims Elon was
>> never in danger.
>>
>> He submitted an appeal, which included an iPetition with more
>> than 5,000 Utahns supporting the dog's return.
>>
>> In a letter sent to Yonnet, Corey Hudson, CEO of CCI, said after
>> reviewing the details of the case the staff had good reason to
>> believe Elon's safety was in jeopardy and to take the dog back.
>>
>> "You repeatedly allowed Elon to be off lead in unenclosed and
>> urban environments, which is a serious safety concern for CCI."
>> Hudson said.
>>
>> He also said Yonnet was very confrontational and, at one time,
>> had a electronic collar on Elon, which was a serious breach of
>> CCI's standards for treatment of its dogs.
>>
>> Yonnet can appeal the decision to the national board of Canine
>> Companions for Independence, which he plans to do.
>>
>> Elon is currently being taken care of by a foster family, which
>> Yonnet says doesn't make sense.
>>
>> "He doesn't need a loving foster home," he said. "What he needs
>> is his loving home, his own family, which is me."
>>
>> In March of 2006, Yonnet had a snowboarding accident, which left
>> him paralyzed from the waist down.
>>
>> He said Elon was trained to assist him with tasks, such as
>> switching lights on and off, retrieving objects from the floor
>> and opening doors.
>>
>> While he has been offered another service dog from a different
>> organization, Yonnet says he just wants his "baby" back.
>>
>> E-mail: vvo-duc at ksl.com
>>
>>
>> COMMENTS (17)
>> lost in DC | 4:05 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>> West Jordan, UT
>> too bad the dog is valued more than the person
>> Recommend Recommendations: 5 Ute Fan In Utah | 4:34 p.m. Feb. 25,
>> 2011
>> West Jordan, UT
>> The man breached the contract he had agreed to with the company.
>> I don't blame them for taking Elon, I would have sooner if I had
>> invested so much money into a dog. They make it pretty clear that
>> the dog is not yours when they lend it to you.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 5 Sarah B | 4:50 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>> SLC, UT
>> I agree with Ute Fan. This is a highly educated adult who is
>> fully capable of understanding and following the rules. It takes
>> alot to train these dogs and there is a great need. If he can't
>> play by the rules, then he doesn't get to play. The fact that he
>> abused the dog by using a shock collar is grounds enough to take
>> the dog away.
>>
>> I'd have much more sympathy if it was someone who was also
>> mentally impaired. Rebellion gets no sympathy from me. He made
>> his choices, despite warnings and now he has to deal with the
>> consequences.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 4 Jim A | 5:09 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>> Porter Ranch, California
>> I have a conflicting opinion here. First, CCI doesn't charge for
>> their dogs so point 1 for CCI. Second, the use of a shock collar
>> on a service Dog is reprehensible under any circumstance. If this
>> gentleman did in fact use a shock collar on this dog, that would
>> be grounds for removal in my book. As for the off-lead part, that
>> kind of depends. Sometimes a Service Dog's tasks require him to
>> be off lead for a short period of time, and in a city atmosphere
>> it could be very dangerous for the dog to be off lead. that said,
>> if he was letting the dog off-lead in the mountains when hiking,
>> as originally reported, I see less of an issue with it.
>>
>> All in all, assuming the facts presented in this story are
>> accurate, I have to support CCI's decision. These animals cost
>> way to much to train for someone to be mistreating it with a
>> shock collar or taking unnecessary risks it in a city
>> environment.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 3 UU Fan | 5:25 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>> Salt Lake City, UT
>> I agree with Sarah. Dr Y wants his "baby" back but takes no
>> responsibility for the fact that he is the reason that the dog
>> was taken away despite repeated warnings. Off leash, shock
>> collars, I'm appalled. I'm glad the organization is able to
>> monitor the health and safety of their graduate teams and proceed
>> to do the right thing.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 4 Beth38 | 7:05 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>> Brockton, MA
>> I am so glad that CCI cares enough about their dogs to remove
>> Elon from such an irresponsible and vindictive man. He learned
>> the rules during his two weeks at training to get the dog. He
>> KNEW that the dog would remain CCI's dog, for reasons exactly
>> like this one. He SIGNED a contract stating that he agreed with
>> everything set forth in training, and with the understanding that
>> they maintain ownership. Instead of working with the school when
>> given opportunities, he CHOSE to ignore them and yet he cried
>> foul when the dog was removed. Instead of handling this in a
>> mature manner privately with the organization, he has chosen to
>> lie to the general public about the situation on his numerous
>> webpages as well as attempt. Anyone who wants to read the truth
>> can visit CCI's website. And to those of you who humanize dog's
>> emotions and think that poor Elon must be so sad: dogs don't
>> think like we do. They don't mourn people. They don't look back.
>> Think about it. Do you think Elon mourned his puppy raiser when
>> the "good" doctor got him? Um. No.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 4 DisabilityAdvocate | 8:22 p.m. Feb.
>> 25, 2011
>> Alexandria, VA
>> Regarding "Anyone who wants to read the truth can visit CCI's
>> website", would you go to one half of a dispute to get unbiased
>> information?
>>
>> Regarding the arguments regarding the contract, it does not state
>> that the dog has to be on leash at all times. It does say that
>> local leash and licensing laws need to be followed, and they
>> were. Further, the ADA provides for service dogs being off leash
>> but under voice control.
>>
>> Dr. Yonnet is an inspiration to many disabled people. To take
>> away a paraplegic's dog because he was off leash on rural
>> mountain trails and in the hospital is sad. To further show
>> pictures on your website (as CCI has done) of other dogs off
>> leash in various environments and in another hospital makes this
>> even more concerning. How is Dr. Yonnet's hospital and recreation
>> more dangerous than that of other CCI graduates?
>> Recommend Recommendations: 7 Krizzle | 12:09 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>> Sandy, UT
>> To UoU Fan: Gael did in fact take responsiblity that a certain
>> times he did not have Elon leashed (of course many of those times
>> were due to safety reasons). Cesar Millan has in the past
>> supported the use of shock collars. They are a great use for
>> obedience training if used properly. And to Beth who thinks
>> everyone is consumed at humanizing Elon by associating them with
>> human emotions: animals do mourn. Elon knows he's not with Gael.
>> He's not receiving the same love and devotion that Gael gave him.
>> Elon was never in trouble.
>> Too many times I see animals out there being abused, neglected,
>> taken advantage of. And Gael who treats this dog with the utmost
>> respect gets him ripped out of his arms. CCI has done good for
>> many people but this one situation they've handled horribly.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 ADA prevails | 12:54 a.m. Feb. 26,
>> 2011
>> Eastport, MD
>> (1) There are numerous pictures on CCI's own web site and CCI's
>> own videos that show dogs leash free outside; some of which are
>> clearly in public areas. There are clearly two standards: one for
>> CCI and one for Dr. Yonnet. This does bring to question CCI's
>> motives or prejudice, perhaps?
>>
>> (2) CCI's leash requirements are a violationws of the Americans
>> with Disabilities Act (ADA), which provides latitude on leash
>> requirements for persons in wheelchairs. And, ADA prevails unless
>> a state law or contract provides more freedom for the person in
>> the wheelchair...not the dog. The law protects the disabled
>> first.
>>
>> (3) I could not, in good conscience, recommend that anyone get a
>> dog from CCI given the way they have treated Dr. Yonnet. It was
>> obvious in the pictures that Elon was very happy with Gael. It
>> was also obvious how much Gael loved Elon. To break these two up
>> has now devastated both Gael and Elon. It is absolutely cold and
>> heartless the way this was handled. I would never suppport nor
>> encourage supporting CCI given this case. CCI has no heart if it
>> can do this.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Beth38 | 12:55 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>> Brockton, MA
>> Being an inspiration to disabled people has nothing to do with
>> this matter. And honestly, I am a disabled person and he sickens
>> me with the poor way he has chosen to deal with this issue. The
>> dog is not his and never was. He had numerous opportunities to
>> work with the school to take care of safety issues and he didn't.
>> He didn't follow what he was told to do by the school that loaned
>> him this dog.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 2 Sharon Kenzer | 1:37 a.m. Feb. 26,
>> 2011
>> Eastport, MD
>> Dr. Yonnet and Elon were a family and an inspiration to so many
>> people, including the veterans that were patients of Dr. Yonnet.
>> While dealing with their own disabilities, it was extremely
>> inspiring to see the full life that Gael was living with Elon.
>> Elon inspired Gael to be active again, which gave hope to so many
>> patients dealing with their own disabilities. Elon gave such
>> comfort to many people, including patients, but mostly to Elon.
>> To think that CCI would repo this dog for a fear of what could
>> happen is tragic. Would one keep a child on a leash? When one
>> fully reads Dr. Yonnet's explanation of what transpired, which
>> has been consistent, there is no doubt he exercised good judgment
>> for Elon's safety at all times.
>>
>> Last, comments by CCI supporters repeatedly refer to their leash
>> requirements, however, there are CCI videos and CCI pictures
>> where dogs are leash free in public areas. The more I read about
>> this, the greater the injustice perpetrated on Gael and Elon. I
>> don't believe for a minute that Elon isn't suffering the loss of
>> Gael. CCI should return Elon.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Love Dogs | 1:50 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>> Tarzana, CA
>> I applaud Canine Companions for Independance (CCI) for their
>> decision to remove Elon from Gael. Tbe public statement from CCI
>> can be read on their website on this issue....and for sure, it
>> appears that they do not make a decision like this on a whim,
>> only one in 500 dogs partnered are taken back. It is sad to learn
>> that Gael chose to go public in such a dishonest and arrogant
>> way, and now loose his dog. In my heart I was praying that he
>> would have the sense to listen and talk to the amazing folks who
>> trained Elon, and appreciate the tremendous gift he was given.
>> His refusal to respect this highly trained dog after he received
>> it and his continued arrogant public threats lead me to applaud
>> CCI for their final decision. Thankful for what this amazing
>> non-profit does to help so many disabled Americans....
>> Recommend Recommendations: 1 Ann Mc Dowell | 2:10 a.m. Feb. 26,
>> 2011
>> New York, NY
>> Gael and Elon were an inspiration to so many of the patients in
>> the hospital, particularly the veterans with disabilties and
>> traumatic brain injuries who were Gael's patients. They gave so
>> many people hope that they could live fully active lives.
>>
>> CCI's Form 990, as filed with the IRS for 2009, Schedule O
>> Supplemental Information (page 34) stated:
>> "TAsks performed by instructors at follow-up visitation include:
>> 2) Correction of any problems that may exist;
>> 5) Making certain that the dog is doing the commands initially
>> taught, and that they are still needed; and
>> 6) Beginning the process of teaching new commands, if deemed
>> necessary.
>>
>> Gael requested additional training from Simi in late December of
>> 2010. When a date was set for 1/29/10, Gael was looking forward
>> to meeting with Simi as he was told it was to help with items 2,
>> 5, 6 above. In fact, Gael took the day off from meeting with his
>> patients in order to train with Elon. Instead, Simi offered no
>> training or education and quickly informed Gael that they were
>> there to take Elon. That's the last time Gael saw Elon; tragic
>> for both Gael and Elon.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 SanB | 4:36 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>> Jupiter, FL
>> I have been following this story closely, and still feel that CCI
>> and Dr. Yonnet can resolves the issues at hand. Through all of
>> the anger and emotion (and we ALL have acted out in both) the
>> bottom line is, CCI raised an awesome companion dog, Dr. Yonnet
>> has bonded with Elon, loves him dearly, and was not abusing the
>> dog. I have read in earlier posts, Dr. Yonnet has set out to
>> acquire a new leash (made specifically for people in wheelchairs
>> that are active) that will allow him to take Elon on his mountain
>> trips, which will take care of the safety concerns as expressed
>> by CCI. I have to agree with DisabilityAdvocate above, I have
>> browsed CCI's website, and have seen the same pictures with other
>> dogs off leash, so are those dogs getting ready to be repo'd as
>> well? We have all experienced loss, and death, and have probably
>> even uttered the words "I'd do anything to get them back".
>> Fortunately, in this case, there is still time to get them back,
>> with a very clear mutual understanding of what is expected. Just
>> Love!
>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Angelo John Stevens | 6:51 a.m. Feb.
>> 26, 2011
>> Fort Belvoir, VA
>> I am going to be polite, after fighting a school system in VA who
>> seems to feel they can have a policy that Names ADI, an affiliate
>> of CCI as the sole God to all Dog training and certifications, I
>> have to say I see something fishy with CCI and ADI, more so when
>> an agency feels even with all the good they do, that they are
>> above the law.
>> They have rules which are not enforced across the board, and seem
>> to pick and choose who they enforce them on, based on how much
>> aide and or help that person can give to their fund rasing
>> efforts, their 50,000 dollar dogs does not mean their better dogs
>> then a 20,000 dog, plain and simple.
>> Servioce Dogs should be controllable on and off a leash, because
>> facts and nature dictate there will be places and times these
>> dogs need to be off leash in order to perform their functions.
>> ADA and DOJ have already stated they agree leashs are not
>> required for certain instances where it is unsafe to use a leash,
>> however if dogs can be controlled either with voice, or hand.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Angelo John Stevens | 7:06 a.m. Feb.
>> 26, 2011
>> Fort Belvoir, VA
>> I am still curious why CCI retains owner ship of the dog yet
>> claims they give dogs for free, giving implies you no longer own
>> that which is given, should not the term instead be, We loan
>> service dogs to persons, but at any time may remove that dog if
>> we CCI feel you are too dangerous for that loaned dog to be in,
>> and then we will lie to you to meet at a mall, in order to train
>> you and your dog, but instead will take the dog from you, and not
>> ensure you the disabled person will get home safely, and threaten
>> you with the police as well, lets not also forget these are the
>> same people that want to work with wounded warriors and veterans,
>> our suicide rate is high enough in the military we do not need
>> CCI re-poing dogs from them to add fuel to that fire.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 1000observer | 9:59 a.m. Feb. 26,
>> 2011
>> Alexandria, Va
>> First, CCI makes perfectly clear that they retain ownership of
>> their dogs. It is in every agreement that every graduate,
>> including the person in question, signs before accepting a CCI
>> dog. If you don't like it, don't accept a CCI dog. There are many
>> people on CCI waiting lists willing to accept the terms CCI has,
>> and if you accept a CCI dog, and not the terms CCI has, you are
>> taking that dog away from someone else who might have benefited
>> from a CCI dog. Another SLC TV site has a story posted and on it
>> is a link to the letter from CCI to Dr. Yonnet. After reading
>> this letter, any sympathy I had for the doctor on this issue has
>> disappeared. I leave it to everyone to read the letter, but it
>> seems from the letter that CCI did everything it could to solve
>> the issue at hand, and it is not just about leash and off leash
>> rules. Shame that Dr. Yonnet and his supporters prefer to attack
>> CCI than work with them to find a solution.
>> Recommend Recommendations: 0
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