[nagdu] Question for those with poodles was Re: Quick Question

Tamara Smith-Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Fri May 6 18:27:45 UTC 2011 

Gary,

Yup.  Same with Mitzi poodle.  All those crazy claims poodle nuts make about
the verbal intelligent of their silly looking fou-fou dogs turn out to be
more amazing in real life with a poodle.  There are some cool scientific
studies going these days about verbal understanding in dogs and cats in
general that blow the socks off of the traditional understanding of how and
whether they understand the words we use.  Turns out they actually do.

So, based on my observations of observing Mitzi enough to overcome my
disbelief in what she was showing me is that it is entirely possible Bogart
knows what the words "wine shop" mean from hearing you and your girlfriend
talk about going there.  Mitzi used to drive me nutty with her attitude when
I was diligently labeling things for her so she would understand what this
was that I wanted her to find or what that was...  Many poodle sighs there.
Once I figured out that I didn't need to do all that but could just say to
myself and half to her something like, "Oh, I wonder how I can find the
button here," at an intersection, she would point it out to me like she was
just doing it in passing and I could punch the button and it was much too
easy.  Strange, strange dogs, our poodles.

Since I was new enough to zipping around town being all blind and stuff, I
talked my way through routes in advance to teach myself to orient and
navigate without getting myself lost the minute I stepped through the door.
As Mitzi and I became better at going around our neighborhood by various
routes depending on errands and visits and just everyday life with a GDIT,
then with an apprentice guide learning to work in those environments, I
discovered and could not deny that my poodle prefers an itinerary from me so
that she can plan the trip herself.  Also, that she does not like surprises
because I forgot to include a stop until we got going and I remembered I
needed to turn off to get to it...  More poodle sighs.  Minor arguments on
street corners.

Scary smart, really, that one.  Sounds like your Bogart has some of that
same unbelievable, wacky poodle brain stuff happening.  /grin/  To this day,
Mitzi is much happier and more efficient if she knows where we're going and
can just get us there than if I fall back on using the four guide dog
commands.  Sheesh!  Why would I do that when I just let the guide dog do her
thing to get me there, since she knows where we're going and what we plan to
do from listening to us talk about it while we were all getting ready to go,
then in the truck, then getting out to the truck.  It's just an insult to
her intelligence acting like she needs someone to tell her what to do like
that.  Sigh.  SIGH!  /lol/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of GARY STEEVES
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 3:03 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Question for those with poodles was Re: Quick Question

Hi Sara:

Hmm, I'm not sure about this. Basically when I got Bogart home I took him to
places that I knew how to get to easily. He picked everything up quickly
himself. Now, I don't worry about training him on routes. In fact, for our
after work walks I'm always trying to find diffeerent routes for him to keep
things exciting and him thinking more.

He also just picks things up. I was heading to the wine store by myself one
day and told him, once half way down the block, to find the wine store. Now
I had never labeled this before but Susan and I go there quite often. So he
figured out that when I said "find the wine store" and he didn't know what I
was talking about that it must be this place close  to where we often go. He
finds it every time now. I guess all this means though that I don't really
train Bogart in specific routes. Yes, he nows where my work is and where I
genearlly eat lunch because we do that a lot. And when we walk home and get
to our street he turns without any prompting from me. He even makes
decisions sometimes about how he wants to go. We walked a slightly different
route home after work but it landed us at a familiar intersection. I was
going to stay on the side we were on but Bogart wanted to cross and walk on
the other side. being that it is all the same to me, I followed his lead.

Probably haven't answered your question but maybe I've managed to give a bit
of insight into Bogart who is a poodle but who knows if he acts like other
ppoodles. :)

Gary
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Clark <goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2011 2:22 pm
Subject: [nagdu] Question for those with poodles was Re:  Quick Question
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>

> I've always understood that with the labs, it was important to 
> find things correctly without a lot of mistakes of passing the 
> destination, etc, so that the dog learns the correct way, 
> because its harder to unteach them when they've learned the 
> wrong way.
> But from what I understand of poodles, it seems that this might 
> not be as big of a deal with poodles -- that messing up won't be 
> likely to mess them up. It seems that if you're telling them to 
> go somewhere and they're resisting, and you get there and it 
> turns out that you're wrong, it seems that they'd be more likely 
> to be thinking "see stupid, I told you.." As opposed to the lab 
> who might be more unsure or hesitant the next time.
> Am I correct about this?
> 
> Sarah & Miguel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "GARY STEEVES" 
> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the 
> National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 1:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quick Question
> 
> 
> >
> >Hi Mark:
> >
> >Forever behind in my emails.
> >
> >My personal opinion is that I think it would be best to learn 
> the campus and deal with all the changes and stresses of the 
> first year of school without the newness of a guide dog. From my 
> several experiences at universities and the rigours of school, I 
> know that having to learn with Bogart all the things I needed to 
> learn would have added another layer of work that would have 
> made things more challenging.
> >
> >Of course, since getting Bogart last year, I've also learned 
> that when the team is presented with problems that you don't 
> know how to figure out, you'll figure them out together. No one 
> can give you the anser of course, but we all just share our 
> feelings or experiences.
> >
> >I think whatever you do, based on how your asking the questions 
> and thinking things through, you'll do just fine.
> >
> >Gary
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Julie J <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> >Date: Thursday, April 28, 2011 4:38 pm
> >Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quick Question
> >To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >
> >>Mark,
> >>
> >>You are too funny!  You think just like me.  I want
> >>charts and graphs and lists and where are the numbers?  I
> >>need me some scientific data!
> >>
> >>I look at it this way...I am generally going to use a handful of
> >>routes or variations of these routes in my day to day
> >>life.  However I travel several times each year for
> >>work.  I never go to the same place twice and I still need
> >>to get to my meetings and find a restaurant and all that.
> >>If I waited until I knew all the routes to every place I was
> >>going to go before I got a dog, I'd never have a dog.
> >>
> >>I ask questions.  I explore on my own.  I let Monty
> >>make educated guesses. I get lost and discover new things in the
> >>process.Most of the time it's fun and sometimes it's
> >>frustrating, but I haven't noticed that my getting lost or
> >>needing to ask directions has changed a whole bunch from cane 
> to dog.
> >>
> >>Best of luck in whatever you decide,
> >>Julie
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J. Cadigan"
> >><kramc11 at gmail.com>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
> >>Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 8:12 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quick Question
> >>
> >>
> >>>I still don't know if I am going to go get a dog. I know that
> >>if I was to go get a dog I would be able to take care of it and
> >>make it work. What I don't know is would it be more beneficial
> >>to spend a year and know the campus cold before getting the dog,
> >>or will the month I will be spending on the campus this summer
> >>with a mobility instructor be sufficient. After that, I will
> >>know the routes I will need on the first day of school but,
> >>still won't be familiar with the entire campus. I basically want
> >>to do what's best for the dog and what will simplify things the
> >>most. It is a huge campus covering the Beacon Hill and
> >>government center areas of Boston. I know people feel strongly
> >>both ways.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I wish I could have some data to crunch. If only there was a
> >>survey of people that got there dog before freshmen year, and
> >>people that waited and I could compare some data.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Thoughts?
> >>>
> >>>Mark
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Sheila Leigland"
> >><sleigland at bresnan.net>>To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National
> >>Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 7:59 PM
> >>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quick Question
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>If you believe you are ready to get a dog go for it and have a
> >>great time.
> >>>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> >>>>Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 2:04 PM
> >>>>To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> >>Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quick Question
> >>>>
> >>>>Good news is I am not much of a party person. In fact, I can't
> >>stand crazy
> >>>>parties with all the noise and crowds. I am also 19 so a bit
> >>older than you
> >>>>were when you started college for the first time. I am an
> >>early riser
> >>>>anyway, so the taking the dog out in the morning won't be a
> >>problem. I am
> >>>>normally up at 6:00 except those days when it is noon. Lol.
> >>But those are
> >>>>not often.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Mark
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie J" 
> <julielj at neb.rr.com>>>>>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National 
> Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >>>><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 10:07 AM
> >>>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quick Question
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Mark,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I never had a guide dog at college.  The first time I
> >>went to college I
> >>>>>was 17 and just out of high school.  I enjoyed staying
> >>up late, sleeping
> >>>>>even later, staying with different friends and their parents
> >>on the
> >>>>>weekends, going to parties and generally enjoying
> >>myself.  Having a new
> >>>>>dog in that situation would have been a disaster.  I had
> >>no regular
> >>>>>schedule, only stayed at my dorm room weekdays, was
> >>constantly running
> >>>>>around visiting new places and new people.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Then several years later I went back to college.  By
> >>then I was married
> >>>>>and had Kiddo.  I could have easily fit a guide into
> >>life then.  I lived
> >>>>>in an apartment, had a regular routine,  and was much
> >>more settled. I
> >>>>>actually had three pet dogs then.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>At both colleges I attended there were other students that
> >>had guide dogs
> >>>>>One was a younger student with questionable orientation
> >>skills.  the other
> >>>>>was an older gentleman who had good skills.  Both seemed
> >>to be successful
> >>>>>with their dogs at college.  I think the difference was
> >>in their
> >>>>>willingness to put the dog before parties and other random 
> college>>>>>craziness.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>It's all you though.  Best of luck in whatever you decide!
> >>>>>Julie
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J. Cadigan"
> >><kramc11 at gmail.com>>>>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
> >>Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >>>>><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 8:17 AM
> >>>>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quick Question
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Thanks for all the responses thus far. They are providing
> >>food for
> >>>>>>thought.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Mark J. Cadigan
> >>>>>>Kramc11 at gmail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "PICKRELL, REBECCA M
> >>(TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
> >>>>>>To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
> >>Dog Users'"
> >>>>>><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 8:34 AM
> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quick Question
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Mark,
> >>>>>>>How do you feel on this subject and why do you feel a 
> given way?
> >>>>>>>I got my first dog shortly after high school. She started
> >>college with
> >>>>>>>me and completed it with me too.
> >>>>>>>Looking back, I don't know that it was the right call.
> >>>>>>>I had a few friends that could not adjust to me having a dog.
> >>>>>>>Irronically, now that I am no longer using a dog, these
> >>people are back
> >>>>>>>in my life. One friend and I had the breakup from hell. The
> >>dog was only
> >>>>>>>part of the reason why. We are friends again and looking
> >>back, I'm sorry
> >>>>>>>for all the time we lost. I have missed him.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>My rationale for getting my dog when I did was that
> >>everybody I met
> >>>>>>>would know me as having a dog and could either accept or
> >>reject the
> >>>>>>>package.
> >>>>>>>Looking back, I'm not sure this is logical. We all change
> >>over time and
> >>>>>>>friendships change over time.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I'd almost urge you to wait, but this is only because of my
> >>experience.>>>>>Interestingly enough, I met my husband when I
> >>had a guide dog. He isn't
> >>>>>>>really a dog person and we still got together. So if you're
> >>not sure,
> >>>>>>>I'd wait.
> >>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
> >>bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>>>>>Behalf Of Lisa Irving
> >>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 4:32 AM
> >>>>>>>To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
> >>Dog Users
> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quick Question
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Mark,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I applaud
> >>>>>>>your maturity, your willingness to seek feedback.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>As an incoming freshman you will incur many new
> >>responsibilities. It's a
> >>>>>>>lot
> >>>>>>>of work to be a college student. It's work whether you are
> >>blind or
> >>>>>>>sighted.
> >>>>>>>The fact of the matter, it's even more work when you are
> >>blind. Keep
> >>>>>>>this in
> >>>>>>>mind as you weigh your options.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I think back to when I was a freshman, back in the
> >>80s.  I think I could
> >>>>>>>have handled caring for my guide dog. What I likely would
> >>have had
> >>>>>>>trouble
> >>>>>>>with is not letting my dog become everyone's toy. I think I
> >>would have
> >>>>>>>had
> >>>>>>>difficulties living in a dorm and setting boundaries with
> >>room mates.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>There are a lot of us on this list who want to see you be
> >>successful as
> >>>>>>>a
> >>>>>>>student as well as being a guide dog handler. Both are huge
> >>jobs that
> >>>>>>>take
> >>>>>>>determination, consistency and some tenacity.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Lisa and Bernie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J.
> >>Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
> >>Dog Users"
> >>>>>>><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 8:09 AM
> >>>>>>>Subject: [nagdu] Quick Question
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Hi all. This is Mark with a quick question. Feel free to
> >>respond either
> >>>>>>>>on
> >>>>>>>>or off list. I will be attending college at Suffolk
> >>University as a
> >>>>>>>>freshman in Boston this September. I have been accepted to
> >>attend the
> >>>>>>>>Seeing Eye July class. My question is, should I get a dog
> >>now, or
> >>>>>>>>should I
> >>>>>>>>defer it for a year and go to the training the summer
> >>before soft more
> >>>>>>>>year. I can see the merits of both, and just curious as 
> to your
> >>>>>>>>thoughts.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
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