[nagdu] a blindconsumer'sRight toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)

Tami Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Sun Nov 13 02:32:19 UTC 2011


Rhonda,

You go, girl! /grin/

I'm always glad to see those who can go on and live their lives and seek 
to meet their potential despite difficulties with their state agency...

I enjoy a lot more those I know who flourish and excel at competing with 
their sighted peers in school or business or whatever because they have 
had the training and support they need from their VR agency. Tickles me 
pink, it does. /grin/

Well, I love everybody's story because I just love people and their 
stories. /lol/ But I get more a lift over happy stories than sad ones. 
I'm getting sappy in my old age, I guess.

Good to see you on the list. Oh, my Mitzi poodle is a five-year -old 
owner-trained guide. Great kid, wonderful guide, I'm not sure how that 
happened. /lol/

Best to you and it will be fun getting to know you and your guide.

Tami

On 11/12/2011 01:14 PM, rhonda cruz wrote:
> hey tami.
> wow that was great.
> I feel the same way.
> I don't use the blindness servies.
> here in calfornia.
> they felt like i wouldn't ammount to anything.
> but i'm better off on my own.
> it's less stress on me. and mya.
> they felt like mya wasn't a good dog.
> but i know she's great.
> she's given me more freedom.
> and made me feel better about traveling.
>
> i beleave that i can do anything that any body.
> elce is able to do.
> i just use my skills.
> that i learned from school.
> well. chat soon.
>
>
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Tami Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:43:39 -0800
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blindconsumer'sRight
> toChooserehabtrainin
> g(federalregs)
>
>> RJ,
>
>> Over the past nearly 13 years, it has become very apparent to me
> that in
>> Oregon, the VR system is not much governed by the decisions and
> quirks
>> of individual counselors, but definitely comes from the top down
> and is
>> a matter of established practice. The quote from Dr. Jernigan
> holds very
>> true here, and has been so self-reinforcing by now for so many
> decades,
>> that the resulting blind culture has become hardened almost
> beyond any
>> ability to communicate nonconforming thoughts and ideas. Or to
> get
>> answers to questions that do not come straight from the agency
> word and
>> tone perfect. I have observed this over and over throughout the
> blind
>> culture, not just in any one section of it. Nonconformity to
> that
>> underlying culture is not for the faint of heart.
>
>> I figured out years ago that the application of informed choice
> here is
>> what you describe having experienced in Florida. We will inform
> you of
>> your choices. You will act on the choices we make for you.
>
>> The response to even basic questions is, well, informative if not
> in the
>> way one would hope. Thirteen years of trying to find a way
> around that
>> barrier has gotten me a whole lot of frustration. Sigh.
>
>> For myself, I've decided that I am so much better off without
> having to
>> deal with the agency that I've just put my time and energy into
>> recovering from not having caught on soon enough. My resulting
> financial
>> and health situation have made that a long, grueling and slow
> process,
>> but with every plateau I reach, my speed of progress picks up a
> little
>> more. It's exhausting, but I'm getting there... In more and
> more areas
>> of life, actually, which stuns me when I take time out to notice
> that.
>
>> So now when people ask me about VR, what do I tell them? Not a
> clue.
>> Except to give them information and ideas to counteract the
> attitudes
>> towards blindness that come from the agency and are now a
> foundation
>> stone of the world view of the blind culture. When I am talking
> to
>> another blind person I've only just met in whatever venue, about
> any
>> subject at all, I can pretty much rest assured that I will hear,
> Well,
>> The Blind cant..." Or, "well you know how the Blind are..." and
> so on.
>> Finding a nonconfrontational yet effective means to communicate
> past
>> that sort of thing has not been easy. I've sort of settled on an
>> approach I can live with that does appear to bring a glimmer of
> new
>> thought to the person who just told me that the Blind can't do
> most of
>> what I do or that The Blind just do something I would never do
> because
>> of how The Blind are that I am not... Sigh. Much practice of
> Zen for me
>> and deep calming breaths before speaking.
>
>> The Blind can't really learn braille, you know, it's just too
> hard for
>> them so they don't try.
>
>> Well, you have to understand that The Blind just want people to
> give
>> them free things so that's why the agency doesn't want you to
> find out
>> enough about braille displays for your employer to purchase one
> for you
>> so you can keep working.
>
>> You can't expect the agency to provide you with a braille display
> or
>> help you get braille textbooks for college because The Blind
> can't
>> really learn anyway. You can just go to class, since nobody is
> going to
>> expect anything more from you.
>
>> The agency needs to make sure that The Blind aren't taking
> scarce
>> resources from blind people who need them.
>
>> We don't talk about it; we don't want to cause trouble for the
> agency
>> because they're under attack from the state auditors and the Ways
> and
>> Means committee.
>
>> The agency doesn't have to provide VR services, you know, if they
> don't
>> want to. SO you just have to cooperate with them and be patient
> with
>> them or else they will not provide services to you. Just do
> everything
>> they tell you to do and maybe you can convince them that you are
> worth
>> giving a little training to. Or maybe they will help you buy a
> talking
>> watch or something like that.
>
>> Well, you shouldn't try to ... The Blind can't really do that,
> so you
>> need to find something to do for a little bit of money that you
> actually
>> can do. That way you can feel better about yourself and you
> might have a
>> little extra spending money to go to lunch witha friend or
> something
>> nice like that. You can maybe make some nice friends at work, so
> that
>> will help you with The Depression from The Loneliness and The
> Isolation.
>
>> Listen to your counselor who knows what you can do and what you
> should do.
>
>> Always cross the street at an audible signal, because that way
> you know
>> it's safe to go. My instructor told me to just listen for the
> tone to
>> change then step out across the street as quickly as I can so I
> can get
>> to the other side before the signal changes. That's what you
> should do.
>
>> As I said, much practice of Zen and deep calming breaths on my
> part.
>> That's not actually all of the repeated phrases all in the same
> tone I
>> hear all the time from other blind people. Since I also got to
> hear them
>> first from the agency...
>
>> Now I'm reading some of them again in quotes in newspaper
> articles about
>> the latest audit and the pressure from the Secrtary of State on
> the
>> Board to get things sgraightened up. If everyone would stop
> pointing
>> fingers and whining like children... Oh, I love that one, too.
> I first
>> heard that years ago when I expressed some frustration with the
> income I
>> was losing and the extra medical bills I hadn't been expecting
> and how
>> much more income I needed from working if only I could get the
> toolsto
>> do the reading.
>
>> Yes, indeed, the first thing I needed to do about that was to
> stop
>> pointing fingers and whining. ZZen. It's all about the Zen.
> Urgh!
>
>> Oh, just to tie this in to keep it not completely off topic: Your
> O&M
>> instructor can teach you how to get a guide dog and will tell you
> what
>> you need to know about how to take care of it. Maybe then if you
> talk to
>> the guide dog school, they will let you have a dog...
>
>> Drumroll, please!
>
>> Tami
>
>> On 11/11/2011 04:18 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote:
>>> See that's how it is here in Florida. The councilor's dictate
> instead of
>>> allowing you to make an informed choice. Why is their a 74
> percent
>>> unemployment rate among the blind? because all the working aged
> blind
>>> are working in a vending stand because councilor knows best! The
> NFB has
>>> been around for almost 75 or more years, but when you really get
> down to
>>> it, what have the blind really accomplished? Not much of
> anything.
>>> Jerigan said its a cycle The agencies for the blind give bad
> teaching
>>> skills, which leads to wrong misconceptions of the blind person
> to the
>>> general public. We have three blindness training centers, but
> these are
>>> not schools. Alot of times, kids are sent to a blindness
> school, from
>>> the time they're five years old, until they graduate, and then
> when they
>>> get out into the world, they don't know how to adjust. So, what
> should
>>> we the blind do? Get them when they're young, so that when they
> graduate
>>> from high school, they won't need to go to the NFB center,
> because they
>>> already have the training. RJ
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda"
> <bjnite at windstream.net
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer'sRight
>>> toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)
>
>
>>>> Hey Tami
>
>>>> that is what happens in my state. Once they had a Consumer
> Advisory
>>>> Counsel that said some true, uncomplimentary stuff about the
>>>> counselors. The counselors were insulted because the counselors
> had
>>>> Masters degrees and who were these ungrateful consumers. I read
> the
>>>> minutes and heard the counselors angry comments because I worked
> for
>>>> the Agency.
>
>>>> Then as a consumer after I was forced out of the agency due to
> an
>>>> office move, I had a whole slew of problems getting what I knew
> I
>>>> needed. I found out a rehab tech had told the counselor the
> exact
>>>> opposite about what he and I discussed. I protested and had my
> case
>>>> closed in frustration.
>
>>>> Instead of learning our rights etc., I would just like to know
> the
>>>> States where rehab professionals really help the most consumers
> and
>>>> work with them as a team instead of dictating what the client
> needs
>>>> and giving anyone who asks for choices etc. a hard time.
>
>>>> When I had my issues, I didn't know of anyone to help me. Even
> if I
>>>> did, it is an exhausting process and i want to enjoy life and
> not
>>>> spend all my time fighting with people. If I had things to do
> over,
>>>> and had access to the internet, I would have moved to the State
> where
>>>> the rehab people are known to be more helpful.
>>>> Brenda
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> On 11/11/2011 6:22 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>>> So what do you do, then, when you do your homework before you
> make
>>>>> your first call and know what your needs are and formulate your
>>>>> requests according to that in line with what the law and the
> policies
>>>>> and procedures are and..And get nowhere. For years.
>
>>>>> What if you keep hearing that this is what happens to virtually
>>>>> everyone you talk to.
>
>>>>> What if you learn that there is no recorse, that the agency is
> not
>>>>> following the laws or the rules and regs because they don't
> actually
>>>>> have to? Because there is no one to make them?
>
>>>>> Then where are you?And where are all your friends and
> acquaintances
>>>>> and what do you tell them when they ask you what do do?
>
>>>>> Tami.
>
>
>
>>>>> On 11/11/2011 12:40 PM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>>>>>> You don't march in, you ease in and tell your counsellor what
> you'd
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> to do and ask them how it can be accomplished.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur"
>>>>>> <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:49 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer's Right
>>>>>> toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)
>
>
>>>>>>> How is a blind consumer suposed to just march into their
> councilors
>>>>>>> office, and tell him or her I want this or that? The councilor's
> know
>>>>>>> these regulations back and forwards... They have excuses for
>>>>>>> everything. Really this should be for the rehab councilor list.
> RJ
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Criminal Justice Major
>>>>>>> Extraordinaire" <orleans24 at comcast.net
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:39 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer's Right to
>>>>>>> Chooserehabtraining(federalregs)
>
>
>>>>>>>> Hi, larry,
>>>>>>>> I'll agree with you on this one and leave it alone too.
>>>>>>>> Since I don't know that much about those individuals, will leave
> it
>>>>>>>> as that.
>>>>>>>> *Smiles*
>>>>>>>> Bibi and Odie
>>>>>>>> the happy spirited bounty labra wolf
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
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