[nagdu] ablindconsumer'sRight toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)

Sun Nov 13 03:57:14 UTC 2011

tami.

i'm vary determed.  to get thinfs in place.
 am glad to get to know  you as well!

> ----- Original Message -----
>From: Tami Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net
>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:32:19 -0800
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] ablindconsumer'sRight	
toChooserehabtrainin
g(federalregs)

>Rhonda,

>You go, girl! /grin/

>I'm always glad to see those who can go on and live their lives 
and seek
>to meet their potential despite difficulties with their state 
agency...

>I enjoy a lot more those I know who flourish and excel at 
competing with
>their sighted peers in school or business or whatever because 
they have
>had the training and support they need from their VR agency.  
Tickles me
>pink, it does.  /grin/

>Well, I love everybody's story because I just love people and 
their
>stories.  /lol/ But I get more a lift over happy stories than sad 
ones.
>I'm getting sappy in my old age, I guess.

>Good to see you on the list.  Oh, my Mitzi poodle is a five-year 
-old
>owner-trained guide.  Great kid, wonderful guide, I'm not sure 
how that
>happened.  /lol/

>Best to you and it will be fun getting to know you and your 
guide.

>Tami

>On 11/12/2011 01:14 PM, rhonda cruz wrote:
>> hey tami.
>> wow that was great.
>> I feel the same way.
>> I don't use the blindness servies.
>> here in calfornia.
>> they felt like i wouldn't ammount to anything.
>> but i'm better off on my own.
>> it's less stress on me.  and mya.
>> they felt like mya wasn't a good dog.
>> but i know she's great.
>> she's given me more freedom.
>> and made me feel better about traveling.

>> i beleave that i can do anything that any body.
>> elce is able to do.
>> i just use my skills.
>> that i learned from school.
>> well.  chat soon.

>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Tami Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:43:39 -0800
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blindconsumer'sRight
>> toChooserehabtrainin
>> g(federalregs)

>>> RJ,

>>> Over the past nearly 13 years, it has become very apparent to me
>> that in
>>> Oregon, the VR system is not much governed by the decisions and
>> quirks
>>> of individual counselors, but definitely comes from the top down
>> and is
>>> a matter of established practice.  The quote from Dr.  Jernigan
>> holds very
>>> true here, and has been so self-reinforcing by now for so many
>> decades,
>>> that the resulting blind culture has become hardened almost
>> beyond any
>>> ability to communicate nonconforming thoughts and ideas.  Or to
>> get
>>> answers to questions that do not come straight from the agency
>> word and
>>> tone perfect.  I have observed this over and over throughout the
>> blind
>>> culture, not just in any one section of it.  Nonconformity to
>> that
>>> underlying culture is not for the faint of heart.

>>> I figured out years ago that the application of informed choice
>> here is
>>> what you describe having experienced in Florida.  We will inform
>> you of
>>> your choices.  You will act on the choices we make for you.

>>> The response to even basic questions is, well, informative if 
not
>> in the
>>> way one would hope.  Thirteen years of trying to find a way
>> around that
>>> barrier has gotten me a whole lot of frustration.  Sigh.

>>> For myself, I've decided that I am so much better off without
>> having to
>>> deal with the agency that I've just put my time and energy into
>>> recovering from not having caught on soon enough.  My resulting
>> financial
>>> and health situation have made that a long, grueling and slow
>> process,
>>> but with every plateau I reach, my speed of progress picks up a
>> little
>>> more.  It's exhausting, but I'm getting there...  In more and
>> more areas
>>> of life, actually, which stuns me when I take time out to notice
>> that.

>>> So now when people ask me about VR, what do I tell them? Not a
>> clue.
>>> Except to give them information and ideas to counteract the
>> attitudes
>>> towards blindness that come from the agency and are now a
>> foundation
>>> stone of the world view of the blind culture.  When I am talking
>> to
>>> another blind person I've only just met in whatever venue, about
>> any
>>> subject at all, I can pretty much rest assured that I will hear,
>> Well,
>>> The Blind cant..." Or, "well you know how the Blind are..." and
>> so on.
>>> Finding a nonconfrontational yet effective means to communicate
>> past
>>> that sort of thing has not been easy.  I've sort of settled on 
an
>>> approach I can live with that does appear to bring a glimmer of
>> new
>>> thought to the person who just told me that the Blind can't do
>> most of
>>> what I do or that The Blind just do something I would never do
>> because
>>> of how The Blind are that I am not...  Sigh.  Much practice of
>> Zen for me
>>> and deep calming breaths before speaking.

>>> The Blind can't really learn braille, you know, it's just too
>> hard for
>>> them so they don't try.

>>> Well, you have to understand that The Blind just want people to
>> give
>>> them free things so that's why the agency doesn't want you to
>> find out
>>> enough about braille displays for your employer to purchase one
>> for you
>>> so you can keep working.

>>> You can't expect the agency to provide you with a braille 
display
>> or
>>> help you get braille textbooks for college because The Blind
>> can't
>>> really learn anyway.  You can just go to class, since nobody is
>> going to
>>> expect anything more from you.

>>> The agency needs to make sure that The Blind aren't taking
>> scarce
>>> resources from blind people who need them.

>>> We don't talk about it; we don't want to cause trouble for the
>> agency
>>> because they're under attack from the state auditors and the 
Ways
>> and
>>> Means committee.

>>> The agency doesn't have to provide VR services, you know, if 
they
>> don't
>>> want to.  SO you just have to cooperate with them and be patient
>> with
>>> them or else they will not provide services to you.  Just do
>> everything
>>> they tell you to do and maybe you can convince them that you are
>> worth
>>> giving a little training to.  Or maybe they will help you buy a
>> talking
>>> watch or something like that.

>>> Well, you shouldn't try to ...  The Blind can't really do that,
>> so you
>>> need to find something to do for a little bit of money that you
>> actually
>>> can do.  That way you can feel better about yourself and you
>> might have a
>>> little extra spending money to go to lunch witha friend or
>> something
>>> nice like that.  You can maybe make some nice friends at work, 
so
>> that
>>> will help you with The Depression from The Loneliness and The
>> Isolation.

>>> Listen to your counselor who knows what you can do and what you
>> should do.

>>> Always cross the street at an audible signal, because that way
>> you know
>>> it's safe to go.  My instructor told me to just listen for the
>> tone to
>>> change then step out across the street as quickly as I can so I
>> can get
>>> to the other side before the signal changes.  That's what you
>> should do.

>>> As I said, much practice of Zen and deep calming breaths on my
>> part.
>>> That's not actually all of the repeated phrases all in the same
>> tone I
>>> hear all the time from other blind people.  Since I also got to
>> hear them
>>> first from the agency...

>>> Now I'm reading some of them again in quotes in newspaper
>> articles about
>>> the latest audit and the pressure from the Secrtary of State on
>> the
>>> Board to get things sgraightened up.  If everyone would stop
>> pointing
>>> fingers and whining like children...  Oh, I love that one, too.
>> I first
>>> heard that years ago when I expressed some frustration with the
>> income I
>>> was losing and the extra medical bills I hadn't been expecting
>> and how
>>> much more income I needed from working if only I could get the
>> toolsto
>>> do the reading.

>>> Yes, indeed, the first thing I needed to do about that was to
>> stop
>>> pointing fingers and whining.  ZZen.  It's all about the Zen.
>> Urgh!

>>> Oh, just to tie this in to keep it not completely off topic: 
Your
>> O&M
>>> instructor can teach you how to get a guide dog and will tell 
you
>> what
>>> you need to know about how to take care of it.  Maybe then if 
you
>> talk to
>>> the guide dog school, they will let you have a dog...

>>> Drumroll, please!

>>> Tami

>>> On 11/11/2011 04:18 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote:
>>>> See that's how it is here in Florida.  The councilor's dictate
>> instead of
>>>> allowing you to make an informed choice.  Why is their a 74
>> percent
>>>> unemployment rate among the blind? because all the working aged
>> blind
>>>> are working in a vending stand because councilor knows best! The
>> NFB has
>>>> been around for almost 75 or more years, but when you really get
>> down to
>>>> it, what have the blind really accomplished? Not much of
>> anything.
>>>> Jerigan said its a cycle The agencies for the blind give bad
>> teaching
>>>> skills, which leads to wrong misconceptions of the blind person
>> to the
>>>> general public.  We have three blindness training centers, but
>> these are
>>>> not schools.  Alot of times, kids are sent to a blindness
>> school, from
>>>> the time they're five years old, until they graduate, and then
>> when they
>>>> get out into the world, they don't know how to adjust.  So, what
>> should
>>>> we the blind do? Get them when they're young, so that when they
>> graduate
>>>> from high school, they won't need to go to the NFB center,
>> because they
>>>> already have the training.  RJ
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda"
>> <bjnite at windstream.net
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:47 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer'sRight
>>>> toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)

>>>>> Hey Tami

>>>>> that is what happens in my state.  Once they had a Consumer
>> Advisory
>>>>> Counsel that said some true, uncomplimentary stuff about the
>>>>> counselors.  The counselors were insulted because the counselors
>> had
>>>>> Masters degrees and who were these ungrateful consumers.  I read
>> the
>>>>> minutes and heard the counselors angry comments because I worked
>> for
>>>>> the Agency.

>>>>> Then as a consumer after I was forced out of the agency due to
>> an
>>>>> office move, I had a whole slew of problems getting what I knew
>> I
>>>>> needed.  I found out a rehab tech had told the counselor the
>> exact
>>>>> opposite about what he and I discussed.  I protested and had my
>> case
>>>>> closed in frustration.

>>>>> Instead of learning our rights etc., I would just like to know
>> the
>>>>> States where rehab professionals really help the most consumers
>> and
>>>>> work with them as a team instead of dictating what the client
>> needs
>>>>> and giving anyone who asks for choices etc.  a hard time.

>>>>> When I had my issues, I didn't know of anyone to help me.  Even
>> if I
>>>>> did, it is an exhausting process and i want to enjoy life and
>> not
>>>>> spend all my time fighting with people.  If I had things to do
>> over,
>>>>> and had access to the internet, I would have moved to the State
>> where
>>>>> the rehab people are known to be more helpful.
>>>>> Brenda

>>>>> On 11/11/2011 6:22 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>>>> So what do you do, then, when you do your homework before you
>> make
>>>>>> your first call and know what your needs are and formulate your
>>>>>> requests according to that in line with what the law and the
>> policies
>>>>>> and procedures are and..And get nowhere.  For years.

>>>>>> What if you keep hearing that this is what happens to virtually
>>>>>> everyone you talk to.

>>>>>> What if you learn that there is no recorse, that the agency is
>> not
>>>>>> following the laws or the rules and regs because they don't
>> actually
>>>>>> have to? Because there is no one to make them?

>>>>>> Then where are you?And where are all your friends and
>> acquaintances
>>>>>> and what do you tell them when they ask you what do do?

>>>>>> Tami.

>>>>>> On 11/11/2011 12:40 PM, Larry D.  Keeler wrote:
>>>>>>> You don't march in, you ease in and tell your counsellor what
>> you'd
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> to do and ask them how it can be accomplished.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur"
>>>>>>> <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:49 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer's Right
>>>>>>> toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)

>>>>>>>> How is a blind consumer suposed to just march into their
>> councilors
>>>>>>>> office, and tell him or her I want this or that? The councilor's
>> know
>>>>>>>> these regulations back and forwards...  They have excuses for
>>>>>>>> everything.  Really this should be for the rehab councilor list.
>> RJ
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Criminal Justice Major
>>>>>>>> Extraordinaire" <orleans24 at comcast.net
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:39 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer's Right to
>>>>>>>> Chooserehabtraining(federalregs)

>>>>>>>>> Hi, larry,
>>>>>>>>> I'll agree with you on this one and leave it alone too.
>>>>>>>>> Since I don't know that much about those individuals, will leave
>> it
>>>>>>>>> as that.
>>>>>>>>> *Smiles*
>>>>>>>>> Bibi and Odie
>>>>>>>>> the happy spirited bounty labra wolf

>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
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>> defur%40gmail.com

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