[nagdu] Stress Issues
Natalie
nrorrell at qwest.net
Sun Sep 11 21:12:59 UTC 2011
Hi Lora,
I feel for you. While none of my dogs have never gone beyond the realm of
testing the limits because of the transitions between puppy raiser, school
and handler, I'm just tossing in the thought that aside from a thorough
medical evaluation and leisurely activities that others have mentioned,
maybe you might want to choose another variety of toy, like a Kong or
something like that. I've heard that stress in a guide dog can be caused by
any variety of things, and any combination. I pray you can get to the
bottom of this, and I'm sorry your school said that he couldn't be trusted
offleash. I can't imagine the devastation you must be feeling right now.
Praying, and good luck.
Best,
Nat and Liam Joshua
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lora" <blindhistory at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
> My dog does have plenty of nylabones. TSE told me to tug on the leash
> to get my dog to come they said to use high value treats like hotdogs
> to get my dog to come. I tried using highreward treats when my dog
> came quickly and lower treats when he was slower to come. I've dropped
> treats on the ground and clicked and treated when my dog didn't touch
> the thing on the ground but as soon as he got the treat in my hand he
> dove for the treat on the ground. I have had others take him for a
> weekend and he comes just fine to them with their other dogs. I reward
> him and let him go play once I call him. I've thought about owner
> training but if I ca't even get my dog to come I don't think I have
> what it takes to owner train a guide.
> Lora
>
> On 9/6/11, Tami Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Ann,
>>
>> That's a good reminder for me, too. On mailing lists or other e0mail
>> discussions, I don't always remember to remind myself that for the vast
>> majority of guide dog useres, their dog started with a year and ahalf or
>> two years of really intensive behavioral modification by others. When
>> I've spoken to peole who have dogs with really good guide work obut
>> problem house manners, I can hear the frustrating and sadness if they
>> decide they aren't in a position to deal with the problems themselves.
>> Heartbreaking! But what a person who applies to a guide dog progam is
>> seeking is a trained dog who will guide them safely and well without
>> coming home to tear up the house.
>>
>> As an owner-trainer, I got a pup fully expecting her to tear up the
>> house with no expectations that she would ever end up guiding me safely
>> and well, which is why I still wonder why owner-trainers I know always
>> sem to be so sane when this is an essentially crazy thing to do to
>> oneself. /lol/ Then again, I fully plan to do it to myself all over
>> again in a few years, oinly this time with help from Mitzi. My sanity
>> clearly remains in question!
>>
>> If/when I do apply to a guide dog program for a trained guide, though,
>> it will because I don't have the wherewithal - including the time and
>> energy -- to train an undisciplined pup to be a civilized housemate.
>> True, a young dog fresh from guide dog training is going to have some
>> puppy left in him/her, is going to test out the new environemnt, all
>> that. But ongoing issues of destructive or dangerous behavior won't be
>> in my plan, any more than they pobably are in anyone else's who brings
>> home a dog after graduation from a program.
>>
>> And you are right that retraining a dog with poor house manners --
>> especially when they are destructive or dangerous -- is a big project.
>> By the time the dog is old enough to come home with a new blind handler,
>> the phrases that apply to a pet dog owner as much as to and
>> owner-trainer of a guide or service dog don';t apply so much. The blidn
>> handler has a responsibility and is in a position to influence the dog
>> over the course of it's career and the rest of its life if they're lucky
>> enough to be able keep the retired dog. But they weren't the ones doing
>> all the early training and conditioning that so affects an adult dog.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm
>>
>> On Mon, 2011-09-05 at 15:41 -0400, Ann Edie wrote:
>>> Hi, Steve, Lora, and Everybody,
>>>
>>> Steve, the implied answer to your rhetorical question about the root of
>>> behavior problems in guide dogs is, "the handler." However, I don't
>>> think
>>>
>>> this is necessarily a fair answer. It could as well be "the breeding
>>> program" or "the puppy-raising program" or "genetics" or "the nature of
>>> dogs" or many other answers which I haven't thought of off the top of my
>>> head, that has caused the problems.
>>>
>>> I think it is unfair to blame the handler for all behavior issues in
>>> guide
>>>
>>> dogs or in pet dogs for that matter. Sometimes it truly is that a dog
>>> is
>>> not cut out to be a guide dog 24 hours per day, that the only way that
>>> dog
>>>
>>> made it through training was because it was only worked for an hour per
>>> day
>>> and was then put back in the kennels where there was no opportunity to
>>> counter surf, chew up everything in the bathroom wastepaper baskets, eat
>>> the
>>> kids toys and everyone's clothes and shoes, steal a whole roast or a
>>> stick
>>>
>>> of butter off the dining room table, and dash out the door any time he
>>> isn't
>>> tied down. The trainers/instructors never see these behaviors because
>>> they
>>> don't live with the dogs. And if a dog comes to the blind handler with
>>> these behaviors established in his history, even if the handler follows
>>> to
>>>
>>> the letter the instructions of the program as to how to gradually allow
>>> the
>>> dog more freedom in the house and religiously performs obedience
>>> exercises
>>>
>>> daily and gives the dog opportunities to play and release stress, etc.,
>>> the
>>> unwanted behaviors will most likely appear as soon as opportunity
>>> presents
>>>
>>> itself and will be extremely difficult to change because they are so
>>> reinforcing to the dog.
>>>
>>> In my own case, I had had several pet dogs which I had raised from
>>> puppies
>>>
>>> before I got my first guide dog. My pets were always very well-behaved
>>> in
>>>
>>> the house as well as in public, and had many admirers who expressed
>>> their
>>> willingness to offer my dogs a home if a situation ever occured which
>>> prevented me from keeping them. I also competed in obedience with
>>> several
>>>
>>> of my pet dogs, so I know something of formal obedience as well as just
>>> good
>>> manners in dogs.
>>>
>>> My first guide was not only a fine working guide but also had the house
>>> manners I expected. He could be left off-leash in the house without
>>> fear
>>> that he would eat the kids' toys or food from the counters, or, after a
>>> little training, even the food in the pet dog's bowl. He waited for
>>> permission to go through the door and had a reliable recall. And I
>>> didn't
>>>
>>> have to go through any herculean efforts to achieve this result. That
>>> dog
>>>
>>> performed his guide tasks admirably and lived as a beloved member of my
>>> family for 9 years, until his death. At the time, I didn't consider any
>>> of
>>> this extraordinary. I thought it was just what was to be expected of a
>>> highly trained and specially bred guide dog.
>>>
>>> My next 2 guide dogs were completely different. They had horrible house
>>> manners and terrible prey drive. They showed lots of stress symptoms,
>>> such
>>> as losing hair, chewing on their legs and feet, having relieving
>>> accidents
>>>
>>> indoors, having feeding problems, and losing weight. Dealing with these
>>> two
>>> dogs and trying to salvage the partnerships with each of them was
>>> emotionally devastating as well as physically exhausting to me. If I
>>> hadn't
>>> had the background with my pet dogs and my first guide dog that I had, I
>>> surely would have been convinced that I was simply a poor handler who
>>> couldn't maintain the precious investment of time and effort that had
>>> gone
>>>
>>> into producing these special dogs. And the often stated opinion
>>> expressed
>>>
>>> by long-time dog handlers on lists such as this one, that problems in
>>> guide
>>> dogs after placement were almost invariably due to lax discipline on the
>>> part of the blind handler, certainly did not help or support me in my
>>> time
>>>
>>> of struggle.
>>>
>>> In the end, I had to conclude that further efforts to keep working with
>>> those dogs were not going to succeed, and that their return to the
>>> school
>>> was the only viable solution. Neither of those dogs was reissued to
>>> another
>>> blind handler, although both were certainly young enough to make this
>>> the
>>> logical course of action, if it had been a "mismatch" or poor choice of
>>> handler which had caused the problems with these dogs.
>>>
>>> In other words, my considered opinion is that the guide dog training
>>> programs are not perfect. They do occasionally put out dogs which are
>>> not
>>>
>>> temperamentally suited to be guides and dogs which cannot take the
>>> stress
>>> of
>>> full-time guide work, as opposed to being a dog in training. From what
>>> Lora
>>> has said, it sounds as if she has sought and followed the advice of her
>>> training program on how to deal with the issues that have come up with
>>> her
>>>
>>> dog. It sounds as if she has made sincere efforts to retrain the dog
>>> and
>>> to
>>> manage the undesirable behaviors. I would not want Lora to feel that
>>> she
>>> is
>>> somehow to blame for her dog's poor house manners or dangerous
>>> behaviors,
>>> either because she was not rigorous enough in her discipline or because
>>> she
>>> was too strict and controlling of her dog's every move.
>>>
>>> Certainly, the types and amounts of unwanted behavior that each of us is
>>> willing or able to live with in our animal companions differs, and may
>>> differ with our living arrangements and family circumstances as well as
>>> other lifestyle variables. But I don't think there is anything wrong
>>> with
>>>
>>> having a bottom line when it comes to behavior, either in the home or in
>>> public, either guide work behaviors or companion or social behaviors.
>>>
>>> Lora wrote asking for ways that she might use to relieve stress in her
>>> dog.
>>> How about we just answer her question without adding to both her own
>>> stress
>>> and that of the dog?
>>>
>>> In that vain, Lora, have you found any safe fenced place, such as a
>>> tennis
>>>
>>> court or fenced yard, where you can play supervised games with your dog
>>> such
>>> as tug-o-war or fetching games, where there are not too many things that
>>> he
>>> can get in trouble with? When he is indoors, can you keep him on leash
>>> so
>>>
>>> that he goes with you wherever you move rather than putting him on a tie
>>> where he has to stay in one place? Have you tried giving him his food
>>> in
>>> one of the puzzle toys where he has to work to get the food out a piece
>>> at
>>> a
>>> time? Have you used T-Touch or massage with him for relaxation? Have
>>> you
>>>
>>> played little training games with him (on leash) where you have someone
>>> drop
>>> a piece of food (or paper) or something that is not too attractive to
>>> him
>>> and then reward him instantly with a higher value treat for not diving
>>> for
>>>
>>> the dropped item immediately? Does he have favorite chew toys available
>>> to
>>> him frequently? Does he know explicitly which objects are his own to do
>>> what he wants with and which objects are not his and are entirely off
>>> limits? Has he been checked out by a vet for medical reasons for his
>>> stress
>>> level or for causes of some of his obsessive behaviors?
>>>
>>> I hope you will be able to find ways to help your dog relax while at the
>>> same time helping him behave in acceptable ways so that you can all live
>>> together comfortably. And, if nothing works and you find that you
>>> simply
>>> cannot continue to live and work with this dog for your own peace of
>>> mind
>>> and for his safety, then don't think it is your fault in any way. You
>>> have
>>> given it a good try, and that is all that we can do. If the dog is not
>>> cut
>>> out for the job, then he will never be happy in that life. Hopefully,
>>> if
>>> it
>>> comes to that decision, there is a wonderful dog out there just waiting
>>> to
>>>
>>> be your guide and companion, and there is a wonderful family somewhere
>>> who
>>>
>>> would be delighted to have your dog as a pampered pet.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steven Johnson" <blinddog3 at charter.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 1:10 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
>>>
>>>
>>> >A good friend of mine pointed out to me after I made a comment how all
>>> >of
>>> >
>>> >my
>>> > dogs had similar habits. They simply said, in a question, and what is
>>> > the
>>> > common denominator? This made me think very closely to what I was
>>> > doing
>>> > right and those things I let slide. I also know of others who have
>>> > had
>>> > a
>>> > number of dogs in a short period of time, and I always simply ask this
>>> > question. So, what is the common denominator?
>>> >
>>> > Steve
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> > Behalf
>>> > Of Cindy Ray
>>> > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 10:44 AM
>>> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
>>> >
>>> > Wow! I don't think "I guess this dog just can't be an off leash dog"
>>> > is
>>> > really an acceptable answer. I have had a batch of dogs and several
>>> > problems, but I never had one that had to always be tied, leashed, or
>>> > crated. Cindy
>>> >
>>> > On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:39 AM, Lora wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> My school gave me lots of methods that I tried to get this dog to
>>> >> listen of leash and finally the school was like well I guess this dog
>>> >> can't be an off leash dog.
>>> >>
>>> >> On 9/5/11, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>> I can't remember if you have spoken to the school about this. You
>>> > shouldn't
>>> >>> have lots of off leash problems with him at this point. If it was
>>> >>> stress
>>> >>> though, wouldn't his guiding be affected, too? I don't really know.
>>> >>> I
>>> >>> had
>>> > a
>>> >>> dog once that the vet said was stress drinking, but she was a good
>>> > working
>>> >>> dog. I hope someone can help you more than I can apparently help.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> CL
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Lora wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> I've had him for about a year. I know I have a very busy lifestyle.
>>> >>>> His guide work is amazing and I like him as a dog. His off leash
>>> >>>> issues are about the only issue. I've had previous dogs that have
>>> >>>> had
>>> >>>> lots of problems.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 9/5/11, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>> I can't remember how long you have had this dog. Weren't you
>>> >>>>> having
>>> >>>>> trouble
>>> >>>>> with him from the time you got him? I can't remember for sure. I
>>> >>>>> can't
>>> >>>>> remember where he came from either, though in the end that
>>> >>>>> wouldn't
>>> >>>>> matter.
>>> >>>>> Why do you think he has so much stress in his life?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Cindy
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Lora wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Hello List:
>>> >>>>>> I know we've probably had this discussion before but I would
>>> >>>>>> appreciate it if we could have it again. My dog is loosing a lot
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>> hair and I think it is due to stress since he is on a good diet.
>>> >>>>>> I
>>> >>>>>> can't trust him off leash since he doesn't listen at all. I have
>>> >>>>>> tried
>>> >>>>>> letting him play on a flexilead but he won't run around. I play
>>> >>>>>> with
>>> >>>>>> him tug of war and other games like that but I don't think he's
>>> >>>>>> getting enough stress out of his life. Do you have any
>>> >>>>>> suggestions?
>>> >>>>>> Thank You.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> --
>>> >>>>>> Lora
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> Lora
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Lora
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Lora
>
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