[nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Mon Apr 2 15:27:46 UTC 2012


I was denied a fishing license because it wasn't a drivers license.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination


> Rebecca,
>    With all due respect, such a some-all fallacy is fundamentally 
> incorrect. Everyone does not know that a state-issued photo identification 
> is as valid as a driver's license. We have had many cases in which an 
> individual was denied the right to purchase or rent items because the 
> company policy stated they must present a valid driver's license. In any 
> case, the point of my example is that discrimination of any type, 
> including the presentation of documentation that a service animal is 
> legitimate, is best resisted. If we allow it to happen once, we allow it 
> to happen often.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>
>
>> Everybody knows a state issued id is legal.  The cashier can say whatever 
>> they want, the manager wouldn't.  State issued id's are quite common. 
>> Guide dogs really aren't.
>> My other solution would be to tell the cashier that I offered to pay, had 
>> the means to pay and if wasn't going to be accepted, then my items are a 
>> gift.
>>
>> I had something like this happen at a fast food place when the cashier 
>> claimed she couldn't give me change. I told her that was fine, she could 
>> make me a gift of the food.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:57 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>>
>> Rebecca,
>>    First of all, let me state categorically, that the requirement to
>> produce documentation as a precondition to access is not "NFB guidance";
>> rather, it is the guidance of the United States Department of Justice. 
>> Let's
>> say that you are done with your shopping and you are paying for your 
>> diapers
>> and formula with your credit card. The cashier asks you for 
>> identification
>> to ensure that you are truly the cardholder. You present your state 
>> issued
>> photo identification and the cashier says it is not acceptable because 
>> the
>> company's policy clearly states that you must present a driver's license.
>> This, too, is a violation of the ADA. Where do you stop accepting
>> discriminatory behavior and stand up for your civil rights?
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>
>>
>>>I understand what everybody is saying. And, I agree with it.
>>> Here is my question.  I go to Costco because I need or want something.
>>> Let's assume it's a need. One of the things Costco sells is diapers and
>>> formula. They sell them cheaply and of course they sell in bulk.  So,
>>> let's say I need diapers and formula (and believe me that stuff is
>>> expensive at say Giant or Safeway).  I go to Costco and somebody wants 
>>> me
>>> to show ID.  I normally need to have someone drive me to Costco, partly
>>> because it isn't walkable, and partly because once I buy what I need, I
>>> have to haul all that stuff home.  So, I've gone to a bit of trouble and
>>> usually expense to make this trip happen which is fine, but does mean 
>>> that
>>> I really do intend to walk out with my intended purchases.  So, the 
>>> store
>>> asks for ID, and I call the police. If they decide they don't care (I 
>>> did
>>> have this happen once) what exactly will my NFB state president do? Fine
>>> that he or she can resolve the issue in time, but I'm here now, I need 
>>> to
>>> buy what I need to buy, and ona higher level, while I
>>> care about the next person, I also need to think of myself.
>>>
>>> Using my example, why should I follow NFB's guidelines when the only
>>> bennifit is the greater good?
>>> Why do I need to be a test case for this?
>>>
>>> Why isn't NFB making what Costco is doing a criminal offense, or pushing
>>> so that if somebody does ask for ID, they risk loosing their job.
>>>
>>> Not everybody can or wants to be a precident setter.  For me, this is 
>>> more
>>> practical then emotional, we only have one Costco, it's close to my 
>>> house,
>>> and I shop there because they have stuff I need and or want at prices I
>>> like. Suggesting that I can just shop elsewhere while this gets resolved
>>> isn't practical
>>>
>>> Telling me what I should do when you (and I don't mean the below poster)
>>> won't be there to assist on a practical and real time level does me no
>>> good at all.
>>> I could argue that NFB has the resources both legally and person-wise to
>>> fix this issue without the expectation that I should screw up both my
>>> short term and long-term plans as well as my pocketbook.
>>>
>>> Anybody else have the same issue with NFB's direction?
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:27 AM
>>> To: nagdu
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>
>>>
>>> I am in agreement with what President Gwizdala has said, being in
>>> situations recently where the places such as costco has asked for paper
>>> work or id card was just wrong, but the fact that people in the area are
>>> doing it, whether they are bullied into it or not shouldn't make a
>>> difference.
>>> You need to think of the next person that comes after you, you are 
>>> setting
>>> the example, be correct, be polite, but most of all, know what you are
>>> talking about, if the stores are doing the or location, just call the
>>> police, if that doesn't work, call one of us either your state president
>>> of your local chapter of NAGDU, or President Gwizdala.
>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentTravel and TourismNational Federation of the
>>> Blind
>>>
>>> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>>>
>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>>> 631-456-5394
>>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>>>
>>> For daily updates read our blog at
>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
>>>
>>>> From: blind411 at verizon.net
>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:09:15 -0400
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>
>>>> Natalie,
>>>>     NAGDU is working diligently to provide accurate information about 
>>>> the
>>>> rights and responsibilities of service dog users and the accommodations
>>>> we
>>>> patronize. For now, I think the "best answer" is to encourage all 
>>>> service
>>>> dog users to follow the same protocol so as to not create confusion. I 
>>>> am
>>>> of
>>>> the opinion that, since the presence of a service dog is irrelevant to
>>>> access and the services provided, service dogs are best served by not
>>>> giving
>>>> advance notice nor producing documentation of training. Such a practice
>>>> sends the message that this is the norm and should be expected. I have
>>>> had
>>>> hotels, restaurants, and other places of public accommodations tell me
>>>> that
>>>> someone else called in advance and/or produced identification, why not
>>>> me?
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Natalie" <nrorrell at qwest.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:48 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >I know what you're saying, Marion.  I wish I had an easy answer for
>>>> >this.
>>>> >I think the best thing to do is to push for more training of these
>>>> >companies. Of course, people should not have to tell if they are gay,
>>>> >black, Muslim, whatever.  I wish I had an easy answer.
>>>> > Best,
>>>> > Nat and Liam Joshua
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 5:54 AM
>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Natalie,
>>>> >>    In this message, you say that you tell them you will be 
>>>> >> accompanied
>>>> >> by
>>>> >> a guide dog because you don't want any surprises. What I think is 
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> biggest surprise is that taxi companies do not adequately train 
>>>> >> their
>>>> >> employees on the civil rights provisions of the ADA. Just as it is
>>>> >> illegal to discriminate against us by reason of our disability, it 
>>>> >> is
>>>> >> another's civil right to not be discriminated against because of 
>>>> >> other
>>>> >> characteristics. Should someone call a taxi company and tell them 
>>>> >> they
>>>> >> are African American, Muslim, or gay? Why or why not? What if 
>>>> >> someone
>>>> >> contends they are afraid of black people or that their religion
>>>> >> forbids
>>>> >> them from being in the presence of homosexuals? Should they be 
>>>> >> allowed
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> refuse service to them based upon these irrational concerns or 
>>>> >> should
>>>> >> they be required to abide by the law?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Fraternally yours,
>>>> >> Marion Gwizdala
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: "Natalie" <nrorrell at qwest.net>
>>>> >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>> >> Users"
>>>> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:22 PM
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Taxi Refusal
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Hi Cindy, et al,
>>>> >>> I've had it go both ways.  Usually, I do tell them I have the dog
>>>> >>> when I
>>>> >>> make my call, because, like Nicole, I'd prefer there to be no
>>>> >>> surprises.
>>>> >>> However, I've had delays and minor challenges happen whether I
>>>> >>> prewarn
>>>> >>> of the dog or not.  Just depends on the time of day, who's on 
>>>> >>> staff,
>>>> >>> and
>>>> >>> probably God knows what else.
>>>> >>> Best,
>>>> >>> Nat and Liam Joshua
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>> >>> Users"
>>>> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 6:49 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Taxi Refusal
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>I don't understand why you do this when you have the lawful right 
>>>> >>>>to
>>>> >>>>take the dog with you, and I think I did explain, or tried to. I
>>>> >>>>don't
>>>> >>>>mean for you to need to be so defensive about it. I mean, at this
>>>> >>>>point,
>>>> >>>>I expect that the fact I have my dog with me is likely in the cab
>>>> >>>>company's computer, too, because I've taken him. I actually hadn't
>>>> >>>>thought of that angle before. I won't be asking though because it
>>>> >>>>might
>>>> >>>>give them ideas that they wouldn't have had otherwise. Here, of
>>>> >>>>course,
>>>> >>>>we are small enough and we ride enough that they would know that 
>>>> >>>>the
>>>> >>>>dog
>>>> >>>>is with me. Probably they would with you as well. But when you tell
>>>> >>>>them
>>>> >>>>you have a dog, then it lets cab drivers opt out of driving you.
>>>> >>>>That's
>>>> >>>>all I was saying about it.
>>>> >>>> Cindy
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >>>
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>>>> >>
>>>> >>
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>>>
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>>
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