[nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination

Mon Apr 2 15:43:29 UTC 2012

	Did you push back? Why or why not. 
Cindy is right.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:40 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination

You shouldn't have been though. That's what he's saying. Everyone doesn't know that this is a state ID and is used as a driver's license would be. I think that's why they were developed in the first place.

Cindy

On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:27 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:

> I was denied a fishing license because it wasn't a drivers license.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 6:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
> 
> 
>> Rebecca,
>>   With all due respect, such a some-all fallacy is fundamentally incorrect. Everyone does not know that a state-issued photo identification is as valid as a driver's license. We have had many cases in which an individual was denied the right to purchase or rent items because the company policy stated they must present a valid driver's license. In any case, the point of my example is that discrimination of any type, including the presentation of documentation that a service animal is legitimate, is best resisted. If we allow it to happen once, we allow it to happen often.
>> 
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>> 
>> 
>>> Everybody knows a state issued id is legal.  The cashier can say whatever they want, the manager wouldn't.  State issued id's are quite common. Guide dogs really aren't.
>>> My other solution would be to tell the cashier that I offered to pay, had the means to pay and if wasn't going to be accepted, then my items are a gift.
>>> 
>>> I had something like this happen at a fast food place when the cashier claimed she couldn't give me change. I told her that was fine, she could make me a gift of the food.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:57 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>>> 
>>> Rebecca,
>>>   First of all, let me state categorically, that the requirement to
>>> produce documentation as a precondition to access is not "NFB guidance";
>>> rather, it is the guidance of the United States Department of Justice. Let's
>>> say that you are done with your shopping and you are paying for your diapers
>>> and formula with your credit card. The cashier asks you for identification
>>> to ensure that you are truly the cardholder. You present your state issued
>>> photo identification and the cashier says it is not acceptable because the
>>> company's policy clearly states that you must present a driver's license.
>>> This, too, is a violation of the ADA. Where do you stop accepting
>>> discriminatory behavior and stand up for your civil rights?
>>> 
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:07 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I understand what everybody is saying. And, I agree with it.
>>>> Here is my question.  I go to Costco because I need or want something.
>>>> Let's assume it's a need. One of the things Costco sells is diapers and
>>>> formula. They sell them cheaply and of course they sell in bulk.  So,
>>>> let's say I need diapers and formula (and believe me that stuff is
>>>> expensive at say Giant or Safeway).  I go to Costco and somebody wants me
>>>> to show ID.  I normally need to have someone drive me to Costco, partly
>>>> because it isn't walkable, and partly because once I buy what I need, I
>>>> have to haul all that stuff home.  So, I've gone to a bit of trouble and
>>>> usually expense to make this trip happen which is fine, but does mean that
>>>> I really do intend to walk out with my intended purchases.  So, the store
>>>> asks for ID, and I call the police. If they decide they don't care (I did
>>>> have this happen once) what exactly will my NFB state president do? Fine
>>>> that he or she can resolve the issue in time, but I'm here now, I need to
>>>> buy what I need to buy, and ona higher level, while I
>>>> care about the next person, I also need to think of myself.
>>>> 
>>>> Using my example, why should I follow NFB's guidelines when the only
>>>> bennifit is the greater good?
>>>> Why do I need to be a test case for this?
>>>> 
>>>> Why isn't NFB making what Costco is doing a criminal offense, or pushing
>>>> so that if somebody does ask for ID, they risk loosing their job.
>>>> 
>>>> Not everybody can or wants to be a precident setter.  For me, this is more
>>>> practical then emotional, we only have one Costco, it's close to my house,
>>>> and I shop there because they have stuff I need and or want at prices I
>>>> like. Suggesting that I can just shop elsewhere while this gets resolved
>>>> isn't practical
>>>> 
>>>> Telling me what I should do when you (and I don't mean the below poster)
>>>> won't be there to assist on a practical and real time level does me no
>>>> good at all.
>>>> I could argue that NFB has the resources both legally and person-wise to
>>>> fix this issue without the expectation that I should screw up both my
>>>> short term and long-term plans as well as my pocketbook.
>>>> 
>>>> Anybody else have the same issue with NFB's direction?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:27 AM
>>>> To: nagdu
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I am in agreement with what President Gwizdala has said, being in
>>>> situations recently where the places such as costco has asked for paper
>>>> work or id card was just wrong, but the fact that people in the area are
>>>> doing it, whether they are bullied into it or not shouldn't make a
>>>> difference.
>>>> You need to think of the next person that comes after you, you are setting
>>>> the example, be correct, be polite, but most of all, know what you are
>>>> talking about, if the stores are doing the or location, just call the
>>>> police, if that doesn't work, call one of us either your state president
>>>> of your local chapter of NAGDU, or President Gwizdala.
>>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentTravel and TourismNational Federation of the
>>>> Blind
>>>> 
>>>> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>>>> 
>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>>>> 631-456-5394
>>>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>>>> 
>>>> For daily updates read our blog at
>>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
>>>> 
>>>>> From: blind411 at verizon.net
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:09:15 -0400
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>> 
>>>>> Natalie,
>>>>>    NAGDU is working diligently to provide accurate information about the
>>>>> rights and responsibilities of service dog users and the accommodations
>>>>> we
>>>>> patronize. For now, I think the "best answer" is to encourage all service
>>>>> dog users to follow the same protocol so as to not create confusion. I am
>>>>> of
>>>>> the opinion that, since the presence of a service dog is irrelevant to
>>>>> access and the services provided, service dogs are best served by not
>>>>> giving
>>>>> advance notice nor producing documentation of training. Such a practice
>>>>> sends the message that this is the norm and should be expected. I have
>>>>> had
>>>>> hotels, restaurants, and other places of public accommodations tell me
>>>>> that
>>>>> someone else called in advance and/or produced identification, why not
>>>>> me?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Natalie" <nrorrell at qwest.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:48 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> >I know what you're saying, Marion.  I wish I had an easy answer for
>>>>> >this.
>>>>> >I think the best thing to do is to push for more training of these
>>>>> >companies. Of course, people should not have to tell if they are gay,
>>>>> >black, Muslim, whatever.  I wish I had an easy answer.
>>>>> > Best,
>>>>> > Nat and Liam Joshua
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 5:54 AM
>>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Natalie,
>>>>> >>    In this message, you say that you tell them you will be >> accompanied
>>>>> >> by
>>>>> >> a guide dog because you don't want any surprises. What I think is >> the
>>>>> >> biggest surprise is that taxi companies do not adequately train >> their
>>>>> >> employees on the civil rights provisions of the ADA. Just as it is
>>>>> >> illegal to discriminate against us by reason of our disability, it >> is
>>>>> >> another's civil right to not be discriminated against because of >> other
>>>>> >> characteristics. Should someone call a taxi company and tell them >> they
>>>>> >> are African American, Muslim, or gay? Why or why not? What if >> someone
>>>>> >> contends they are afraid of black people or that their religion
>>>>> >> forbids
>>>>> >> them from being in the presence of homosexuals? Should they be >> allowed
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> refuse service to them based upon these irrational concerns or >> should
>>>>> >> they be required to abide by the law?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> >> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >> From: "Natalie" <nrorrell at qwest.net>
>>>>> >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog >> Users"
>>>>> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:22 PM
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Taxi Refusal
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> Hi Cindy, et al,
>>>>> >>> I've had it go both ways.  Usually, I do tell them I have the dog
>>>>> >>> when I
>>>>> >>> make my call, because, like Nicole, I'd prefer there to be no
>>>>> >>> surprises.
>>>>> >>> However, I've had delays and minor challenges happen whether I
>>>>> >>> prewarn
>>>>> >>> of the dog or not.  Just depends on the time of day, who's on >>> staff,
>>>>> >>> and
>>>>> >>> probably God knows what else.
>>>>> >>> Best,
>>>>> >>> Nat and Liam Joshua
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog >>> Users"
>>>>> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 6:49 PM
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Taxi Refusal
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>I don't understand why you do this when you have the lawful right >>>>to
>>>>> >>>>take the dog with you, and I think I did explain, or tried to. I
>>>>> >>>>don't
>>>>> >>>>mean for you to need to be so defensive about it. I mean, at this
>>>>> >>>>point,
>>>>> >>>>I expect that the fact I have my dog with me is likely in the cab
>>>>> >>>>company's computer, too, because I've taken him. I actually hadn't
>>>>> >>>>thought of that angle before. I won't be asking though because it
>>>>> >>>>might
>>>>> >>>>give them ideas that they wouldn't have had otherwise. Here, of
>>>>> >>>>course,
>>>>> >>>>we are small enough and we ride enough that they would know that >>>>the
>>>>> >>>>dog
>>>>> >>>>is with me. Probably they would with you as well. But when you tell
>>>>> >>>>them
>>>>> >>>>you have a dog, then it lets cab drivers opt out of driving you.
>>>>> >>>>That's
>>>>> >>>>all I was saying about it.
>>>>> >>>> Cindy
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
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>>>>> >>
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>>>>> 
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