[nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Tue Apr 3 02:47:45 UTC 2012
Sure, I know! It was at Meijers so I went somewhere else!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
> You shouldn't have been though. That's what he's saying. Everyone doesn't
> know that this is a state ID and is used as a driver's license would be. I
> think that's why they were developed in the first place.
>
> Cindy
>
> On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:27 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>
>> I was denied a fishing license because it wasn't a drivers license.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
>> <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 6:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>>
>>
>>> Rebecca,
>>> With all due respect, such a some-all fallacy is fundamentally
>>> incorrect. Everyone does not know that a state-issued photo
>>> identification is as valid as a driver's license. We have had many cases
>>> in which an individual was denied the right to purchase or rent items
>>> because the company policy stated they must present a valid driver's
>>> license. In any case, the point of my example is that discrimination of
>>> any type, including the presentation of documentation that a service
>>> animal is legitimate, is best resisted. If we allow it to happen once,
>>> we allow it to happen often.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>>>
>>>
>>>> Everybody knows a state issued id is legal. The cashier can say
>>>> whatever they want, the manager wouldn't. State issued id's are quite
>>>> common. Guide dogs really aren't.
>>>> My other solution would be to tell the cashier that I offered to pay,
>>>> had the means to pay and if wasn't going to be accepted, then my items
>>>> are a gift.
>>>>
>>>> I had something like this happen at a fast food place when the cashier
>>>> claimed she couldn't give me change. I told her that was fine, she
>>>> could make me a gift of the food.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:57 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>>>>
>>>> Rebecca,
>>>> First of all, let me state categorically, that the requirement to
>>>> produce documentation as a precondition to access is not "NFB
>>>> guidance";
>>>> rather, it is the guidance of the United States Department of Justice.
>>>> Let's
>>>> say that you are done with your shopping and you are paying for your
>>>> diapers
>>>> and formula with your credit card. The cashier asks you for
>>>> identification
>>>> to ensure that you are truly the cardholder. You present your state
>>>> issued
>>>> photo identification and the cashier says it is not acceptable because
>>>> the
>>>> company's policy clearly states that you must present a driver's
>>>> license.
>>>> This, too, is a violation of the ADA. Where do you stop accepting
>>>> discriminatory behavior and stand up for your civil rights?
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:07 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I understand what everybody is saying. And, I agree with it.
>>>>> Here is my question. I go to Costco because I need or want something.
>>>>> Let's assume it's a need. One of the things Costco sells is diapers
>>>>> and
>>>>> formula. They sell them cheaply and of course they sell in bulk. So,
>>>>> let's say I need diapers and formula (and believe me that stuff is
>>>>> expensive at say Giant or Safeway). I go to Costco and somebody wants
>>>>> me
>>>>> to show ID. I normally need to have someone drive me to Costco,
>>>>> partly
>>>>> because it isn't walkable, and partly because once I buy what I need,
>>>>> I
>>>>> have to haul all that stuff home. So, I've gone to a bit of trouble
>>>>> and
>>>>> usually expense to make this trip happen which is fine, but does mean
>>>>> that
>>>>> I really do intend to walk out with my intended purchases. So, the
>>>>> store
>>>>> asks for ID, and I call the police. If they decide they don't care (I
>>>>> did
>>>>> have this happen once) what exactly will my NFB state president do?
>>>>> Fine
>>>>> that he or she can resolve the issue in time, but I'm here now, I need
>>>>> to
>>>>> buy what I need to buy, and ona higher level, while I
>>>>> care about the next person, I also need to think of myself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Using my example, why should I follow NFB's guidelines when the only
>>>>> bennifit is the greater good?
>>>>> Why do I need to be a test case for this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why isn't NFB making what Costco is doing a criminal offense, or
>>>>> pushing
>>>>> so that if somebody does ask for ID, they risk loosing their job.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not everybody can or wants to be a precident setter. For me, this is
>>>>> more
>>>>> practical then emotional, we only have one Costco, it's close to my
>>>>> house,
>>>>> and I shop there because they have stuff I need and or want at prices
>>>>> I
>>>>> like. Suggesting that I can just shop elsewhere while this gets
>>>>> resolved
>>>>> isn't practical
>>>>>
>>>>> Telling me what I should do when you (and I don't mean the below
>>>>> poster)
>>>>> won't be there to assist on a practical and real time level does me no
>>>>> good at all.
>>>>> I could argue that NFB has the resources both legally and person-wise
>>>>> to
>>>>> fix this issue without the expectation that I should screw up both my
>>>>> short term and long-term plans as well as my pocketbook.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anybody else have the same issue with NFB's direction?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:27 AM
>>>>> To: nagdu
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am in agreement with what President Gwizdala has said, being in
>>>>> situations recently where the places such as costco has asked for
>>>>> paper
>>>>> work or id card was just wrong, but the fact that people in the area
>>>>> are
>>>>> doing it, whether they are bullied into it or not shouldn't make a
>>>>> difference.
>>>>> You need to think of the next person that comes after you, you are
>>>>> setting
>>>>> the example, be correct, be polite, but most of all, know what you are
>>>>> talking about, if the stores are doing the or location, just call the
>>>>> police, if that doesn't work, call one of us either your state
>>>>> president
>>>>> of your local chapter of NAGDU, or President Gwizdala.
>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentTravel and TourismNational Federation of
>>>>> the
>>>>> Blind
>>>>>
>>>>> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>>>>> 631-456-5394
>>>>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>>>>>
>>>>> For daily updates read our blog at
>>>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: blind411 at verizon.net
>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:09:15 -0400
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Natalie,
>>>>>> NAGDU is working diligently to provide accurate information about
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> rights and responsibilities of service dog users and the
>>>>>> accommodations
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> patronize. For now, I think the "best answer" is to encourage all
>>>>>> service
>>>>>> dog users to follow the same protocol so as to not create confusion.
>>>>>> I am
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the opinion that, since the presence of a service dog is irrelevant
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> access and the services provided, service dogs are best served by not
>>>>>> giving
>>>>>> advance notice nor producing documentation of training. Such a
>>>>>> practice
>>>>>> sends the message that this is the norm and should be expected. I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> hotels, restaurants, and other places of public accommodations tell
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> someone else called in advance and/or produced identification, why
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> me?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>> Marion
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Natalie" <nrorrell at qwest.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:48 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >I know what you're saying, Marion. I wish I had an easy answer for
>>>>>> >this.
>>>>>> >I think the best thing to do is to push for more training of these
>>>>>> >companies. Of course, people should not have to tell if they are
>>>>>> >gay,
>>>>>> >black, Muslim, whatever. I wish I had an easy answer.
>>>>>> > Best,
>>>>>> > Nat and Liam Joshua
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> > From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> > Users"
>>>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 5:54 AM
>>>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Natalie,
>>>>>> >> In this message, you say that you tell them you will be >>
>>>>>> >> accompanied
>>>>>> >> by
>>>>>> >> a guide dog because you don't want any surprises. What I think is
>>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>>> >> biggest surprise is that taxi companies do not adequately train >>
>>>>>> >> their
>>>>>> >> employees on the civil rights provisions of the ADA. Just as it is
>>>>>> >> illegal to discriminate against us by reason of our disability, it
>>>>>> >> >> is
>>>>>> >> another's civil right to not be discriminated against because of
>>>>>> >> >> other
>>>>>> >> characteristics. Should someone call a taxi company and tell them
>>>>>> >> >> they
>>>>>> >> are African American, Muslim, or gay? Why or why not? What if >>
>>>>>> >> someone
>>>>>> >> contends they are afraid of black people or that their religion
>>>>>> >> forbids
>>>>>> >> them from being in the presence of homosexuals? Should they be >>
>>>>>> >> allowed
>>>>>> >> to
>>>>>> >> refuse service to them based upon these irrational concerns or >>
>>>>>> >> should
>>>>>> >> they be required to abide by the law?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>> >> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >> From: "Natalie" <nrorrell at qwest.net>
>>>>>> >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog >>
>>>>>> >> Users"
>>>>>> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:22 PM
>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Taxi Refusal
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> Hi Cindy, et al,
>>>>>> >>> I've had it go both ways. Usually, I do tell them I have the dog
>>>>>> >>> when I
>>>>>> >>> make my call, because, like Nicole, I'd prefer there to be no
>>>>>> >>> surprises.
>>>>>> >>> However, I've had delays and minor challenges happen whether I
>>>>>> >>> prewarn
>>>>>> >>> of the dog or not. Just depends on the time of day, who's on >>>
>>>>>> >>> staff,
>>>>>> >>> and
>>>>>> >>> probably God knows what else.
>>>>>> >>> Best,
>>>>>> >>> Nat and Liam Joshua
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog >>>
>>>>>> >>> Users"
>>>>>> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 6:49 PM
>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Taxi Refusal
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>>I don't understand why you do this when you have the lawful right
>>>>>> >>>> >>>>to
>>>>>> >>>>take the dog with you, and I think I did explain, or tried to. I
>>>>>> >>>>don't
>>>>>> >>>>mean for you to need to be so defensive about it. I mean, at this
>>>>>> >>>>point,
>>>>>> >>>>I expect that the fact I have my dog with me is likely in the cab
>>>>>> >>>>company's computer, too, because I've taken him. I actually
>>>>>> >>>>hadn't
>>>>>> >>>>thought of that angle before. I won't be asking though because it
>>>>>> >>>>might
>>>>>> >>>>give them ideas that they wouldn't have had otherwise. Here, of
>>>>>> >>>>course,
>>>>>> >>>>we are small enough and we ride enough that they would know that
>>>>>> >>>> >>>>the
>>>>>> >>>>dog
>>>>>> >>>>is with me. Probably they would with you as well. But when you
>>>>>> >>>>tell
>>>>>> >>>>them
>>>>>> >>>>you have a dog, then it lets cab drivers opt out of driving you.
>>>>>> >>>>That's
>>>>>> >>>>all I was saying about it.
>>>>>> >>>> Cindy
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> >>>> for
>>>>>> >>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
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