[nagdu] Driver's License & state I.D.

Cindy Ray cindyray at gmail.com
Mon Apr 9 15:22:13 UTC 2012 

Apparently you don't need a driver's license to drive someone crazy because there are those out there who seem to have this down to a science, and they don't have to show a driver's license to do it.

Cindy

On Apr 9, 2012, at 10:06 AM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:

> Dear All,
>   Do you all know that a car rental agency cannot refuse to rent you a vehicle just because you do not have a valid driver's license? In a case involving Ed Eames, the Department of Justice negotiated a settlement agreement requiring vehicle rental agencies to rent blind people vehicles if they meet the other requirements for renting a vehicle, e.g. valid identification and a credit card, and a licensed driver to drive the vehicle. The rental agency must also waive "additional driver" fees for the first qualified driver.
>   I was denied the rental of a stump grinder from a tool rental company because I did not have a valid driver's license. I didn't know I needed a driver's license to grind a stump! I was also denied the right to rent a movie for the same reason! I wonder if you need a valid driver's license to drive someone crazy! (grin)
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
> 
> 
>> I was denied a fishing license because it wasn't a drivers license.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 6:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>> 
>> 
>>> Rebecca,
>>>   With all due respect, such a some-all fallacy is fundamentally incorrect. Everyone does not know that a state-issued photo identification is as valid as a driver's license. We have had many cases in which an individual was denied the right to purchase or rent items because the company policy stated they must present a valid driver's license. In any case, the point of my example is that discrimination of any type, including the presentation of documentation that a service animal is legitimate, is best resisted. If we allow it to happen once, we allow it to happen often.
>>> 
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Everybody knows a state issued id is legal.  The cashier can say whatever they want, the manager wouldn't.  State issued id's are quite common. Guide dogs really aren't.
>>>> My other solution would be to tell the cashier that I offered to pay, had the means to pay and if wasn't going to be accepted, then my items are a gift.
>>>> 
>>>> I had something like this happen at a fast food place when the cashier claimed she couldn't give me change. I told her that was fine, she could make me a gift of the food.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:57 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>>>> 
>>>> Rebecca,
>>>>   First of all, let me state categorically, that the requirement to
>>>> produce documentation as a precondition to access is not "NFB guidance";
>>>> rather, it is the guidance of the United States Department of Justice. Let's
>>>> say that you are done with your shopping and you are paying for your diapers
>>>> and formula with your credit card. The cashier asks you for identification
>>>> to ensure that you are truly the cardholder. You present your state issued
>>>> photo identification and the cashier says it is not acceptable because the
>>>> company's policy clearly states that you must present a driver's license.
>>>> This, too, is a violation of the ADA. Where do you stop accepting
>>>> discriminatory behavior and stand up for your civil rights?
>>>> 
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:07 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> I understand what everybody is saying. And, I agree with it.
>>>>> Here is my question.  I go to Costco because I need or want something.
>>>>> Let's assume it's a need. One of the things Costco sells is diapers and
>>>>> formula. They sell them cheaply and of course they sell in bulk.  So,
>>>>> let's say I need diapers and formula (and believe me that stuff is
>>>>> expensive at say Giant or Safeway).  I go to Costco and somebody wants me
>>>>> to show ID.  I normally need to have someone drive me to Costco, partly
>>>>> because it isn't walkable, and partly because once I buy what I need, I
>>>>> have to haul all that stuff home.  So, I've gone to a bit of trouble and
>>>>> usually expense to make this trip happen which is fine, but does mean that
>>>>> I really do intend to walk out with my intended purchases.  So, the store
>>>>> asks for ID, and I call the police. If they decide they don't care (I did
>>>>> have this happen once) what exactly will my NFB state president do? Fine
>>>>> that he or she can resolve the issue in time, but I'm here now, I need to
>>>>> buy what I need to buy, and ona higher level, while I
>>>>> care about the next person, I also need to think of myself.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Using my example, why should I follow NFB's guidelines when the only
>>>>> bennifit is the greater good?
>>>>> Why do I need to be a test case for this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Why isn't NFB making what Costco is doing a criminal offense, or pushing
>>>>> so that if somebody does ask for ID, they risk loosing their job.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Not everybody can or wants to be a precident setter.  For me, this is more
>>>>> practical then emotional, we only have one Costco, it's close to my house,
>>>>> and I shop there because they have stuff I need and or want at prices I
>>>>> like. Suggesting that I can just shop elsewhere while this gets resolved
>>>>> isn't practical
>>>>> 
>>>>> Telling me what I should do when you (and I don't mean the below poster)
>>>>> won't be there to assist on a practical and real time level does me no
>>>>> good at all.
>>>>> I could argue that NFB has the resources both legally and person-wise to
>>>>> fix this issue without the expectation that I should screw up both my
>>>>> short term and long-term plans as well as my pocketbook.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anybody else have the same issue with NFB's direction?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:27 AM
>>>>> To: nagdu
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am in agreement with what President Gwizdala has said, being in
>>>>> situations recently where the places such as costco has asked for paper
>>>>> work or id card was just wrong, but the fact that people in the area are
>>>>> doing it, whether they are bullied into it or not shouldn't make a
>>>>> difference.
>>>>> You need to think of the next person that comes after you, you are setting
>>>>> the example, be correct, be polite, but most of all, know what you are
>>>>> talking about, if the stores are doing the or location, just call the
>>>>> police, if that doesn't work, call one of us either your state president
>>>>> of your local chapter of NAGDU, or President Gwizdala.
>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentTravel and TourismNational Federation of the
>>>>> Blind
>>>>> 
>>>>> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>>>>> 631-456-5394
>>>>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> For daily updates read our blog at
>>>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
>>>>> 
>>>>>> From: blind411 at verizon.net
>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:09:15 -0400
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Natalie,
>>>>>>    NAGDU is working diligently to provide accurate information about the
>>>>>> rights and responsibilities of service dog users and the accommodations
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> patronize. For now, I think the "best answer" is to encourage all service
>>>>>> dog users to follow the same protocol so as to not create confusion. I am
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the opinion that, since the presence of a service dog is irrelevant to
>>>>>> access and the services provided, service dogs are best served by not
>>>>>> giving
>>>>>> advance notice nor producing documentation of training. Such a practice
>>>>>> sends the message that this is the norm and should be expected. I have
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> hotels, restaurants, and other places of public accommodations tell me
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> someone else called in advance and/or produced identification, why not
>>>>>> me?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>> Marion
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Natalie" <nrorrell at qwest.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:48 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> >I know what you're saying, Marion.  I wish I had an easy answer for
>>>>>> >this.
>>>>>> >I think the best thing to do is to push for more training of these
>>>>>> >companies. Of course, people should not have to tell if they are gay,
>>>>>> >black, Muslim, whatever.  I wish I had an easy answer.
>>>>>> > Best,
>>>>>> > Nat and Liam Joshua
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> > From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog > Users"
>>>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 5:54 AM
>>>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Natalie,
>>>>>> >>    In this message, you say that you tell them you will be >> accompanied
>>>>>> >> by
>>>>>> >> a guide dog because you don't want any surprises. What I think is >> the
>>>>>> >> biggest surprise is that taxi companies do not adequately train >> their
>>>>>> >> employees on the civil rights provisions of the ADA. Just as it is
>>>>>> >> illegal to discriminate against us by reason of our disability, it >> is
>>>>>> >> another's civil right to not be discriminated against because of >> other
>>>>>> >> characteristics. Should someone call a taxi company and tell them >> they
>>>>>> >> are African American, Muslim, or gay? Why or why not? What if >> someone
>>>>>> >> contends they are afraid of black people or that their religion
>>>>>> >> forbids
>>>>>> >> them from being in the presence of homosexuals? Should they be >> allowed
>>>>>> >> to
>>>>>> >> refuse service to them based upon these irrational concerns or >> should
>>>>>> >> they be required to abide by the law?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>> >> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >> From: "Natalie" <nrorrell at qwest.net>
>>>>>> >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog >> Users"
>>>>>> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:22 PM
>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Taxi Refusal
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> Hi Cindy, et al,
>>>>>> >>> I've had it go both ways.  Usually, I do tell them I have the dog
>>>>>> >>> when I
>>>>>> >>> make my call, because, like Nicole, I'd prefer there to be no
>>>>>> >>> surprises.
>>>>>> >>> However, I've had delays and minor challenges happen whether I
>>>>>> >>> prewarn
>>>>>> >>> of the dog or not.  Just depends on the time of day, who's on >>> staff,
>>>>>> >>> and
>>>>>> >>> probably God knows what else.
>>>>>> >>> Best,
>>>>>> >>> Nat and Liam Joshua
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog >>> Users"
>>>>>> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 6:49 PM
>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Taxi Refusal
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>>I don't understand why you do this when you have the lawful right >>>>to
>>>>>> >>>>take the dog with you, and I think I did explain, or tried to. I
>>>>>> >>>>don't
>>>>>> >>>>mean for you to need to be so defensive about it. I mean, at this
>>>>>> >>>>point,
>>>>>> >>>>I expect that the fact I have my dog with me is likely in the cab
>>>>>> >>>>company's computer, too, because I've taken him. I actually hadn't
>>>>>> >>>>thought of that angle before. I won't be asking though because it
>>>>>> >>>>might
>>>>>> >>>>give them ideas that they wouldn't have had otherwise. Here, of
>>>>>> >>>>course,
>>>>>> >>>>we are small enough and we ride enough that they would know that >>>>the
>>>>>> >>>>dog
>>>>>> >>>>is with me. Probably they would with you as well. But when you >>>>tell
>>>>>> >>>>them
>>>>>> >>>>you have a dog, then it lets cab drivers opt out of driving you.
>>>>>> >>>>That's
>>>>>> >>>>all I was saying about it.
>>>>>> >>>> Cindy
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>> >>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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> 
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