[nagdu] walking in to objects

Sun Apr 15 18:11:31 UTC 2012

Tami,
Thank you for the suggestions.
I don't know who was Princess's main trainer because Pilot didn't tell us,
but I was told that all the trainers get to work with all the dogs. I will
call the head trainer and see what he has to say besides "give it time".  

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tami Kinney
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 11:01 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects

Hannah,

Hm... With Mitzi, I found that getting to know her quirky poodle psychology
gave me more options for negative reinforcement that was meaningful to
her... Now I'm doing the same with a new puppy who is not a poodle... /lol/

So for Mitzi, something so simple and straightforward as a leash correction
or the word "no" have the opposite of the desired result. She gets really
stubborn and rebellious. If I push it, she melts down. So I haven't used a
leash correction in years. Not worth it!

She hates to be embarrassed in public, though. So to be spoken to
disapprovingly and made to do something again until she gets it right is
something she would rather avoid. /lol/ She really likes being told how
clever, etc., she is when she does well, and she is really very clever. 
So when I gush over that once she starts getting things right, especially if
there is a crowd around, that's really great. /lol/ o it's a better reward
even than click and treat. I have found the clicker to be very useful with
her as a communication tool, though. A quick easy way to just say, "Good
job!" And, if something is tricky for her, then many parties when she gets
it right. /grin/ Well, she mostly gets things right now that she's grown up
and has experience, but if we've been not working enough, I will be sure to
use the click/treat, verbal praise, parties, etc., when we do our refresher
team work. It works really well with her.

Um... She hates to be bored. So there have been times when she was being
squirrelly that I would just stop and stand around looking the other way and
ignoring her until she decided for herself that she would rather work than
be bored. Then I would praise her as we moved forward again. 
That was when she was pretty young, but I got to do that a few times during
team building, too. Oddly, she does the same thing to me when I miss a curb
or something... /lol/ She will just stand and stare off into space until I
get back into position and decide to pay attention. Then she rewards me with
a little happy huff and happy dance, and off we go. 
I don't miss curbs anymore because I do not want to be negatively reinforced
that way. /lol/

Of course, having been the first human to bond with Mitzi, when she was
7 months old, my methods through harness training and team building and on
into her working life have developed over time as we have come to understand
each other. But some of those methods seem to follow what others have
observed of poodle psychology. So maybe you can find something there.

Oh, I notice a real difference with Mitzi, too, if we don't get in our
interactive play. So I'm bumming here at Dad's, because we lost our soccer
ball for yard play, and I don't seem to have any shadow balls (actually
j-Squeak balls) for playing indoors.

Poodles do tend to be anxious critters and I noticed early on in training
and team building that Mitzi would work herself into a meltdown trying to do
everything right. Then her work would really suffer and she would make a lot
of mistakes. Correcting her would only make things worse! So I started
giving her something to do that she could succeed at and be praised and
gushed over for, then I would take off the harness and take out the cane and
just go with her on leash so she could relax without the heavy burden of
responsibility. Sometimes, I would just spend a day with her on leash while
I used the cane, so that she could observe and we could work on one little
problem area to shore up that facet of her work the next day. This worked
really well with her.

Also, the few times she would run me into something, I would not hold back
on my pained exclamations and would stop and rub my shin and be a little
melodramatic about it all. This was more effective with her than a verbal
rebuke or correction. Hm... So then she would be really careful not to run
me into things. When she was younger, her attention was more likely to
wander, but she is really safety conscious. Which is great for me because I
am a klutz who tends to go off into the great unkown like I know what I'm
doing. /lol/ I need a babysitter, not a guide dog! /grin/

When she was younger, I would also give her rest breaks if she seemed to be
having trouble focusing. Just short ones after awhile, where she could take
her mind off work, maybe even have a controlled sniff, etc. I will still
give her sniff breaks if I see the signs that she needs one. 
These days, she will sniff for a couple of seconds, maybe look around and
all, then let me know she's ready to go agaiin! Gives me a break, too, I
guess. /smile/

Okay, that's a lot of stuff, and it's my observations of my own poodle
guide, so I don't know if any of it is helpful.

I also agree with the suggestions that you talk with your trainer, since
he/she is the one who knows how Princess was trained and how she responds
and so forth. So he/she can probably give you some tailored suggestions.

Best with your curly girl! Hope you get this worked out.

Tami

On 04/13/2012 10:44 PM, Hannah Chadwick wrote:
> Cindy,
> Yes, I correct her, make her rework it, and then praise her if she 
> does it well. I feel like she only remembers being corrected for 
> running in to things for a few days and then she forgets...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 6:33 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>
> But what do you do as a correction? Do you make her rework it when she 
> runs you into something?
>
> CL
>
> On Apr 13, 2012, at 8:08 PM, Hannah Chadwick wrote:
>
>> Cindy,
>> I have done everything that I've been told to do. I have vision, but 
>> not enough to see objects, and I never walk her around objects, it's 
>> always the other way around.
>> I just don't want to end up going through what Daniel did with his dog.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 6:05 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] walking in to objects
>>
>> How do you correct Princess? Also, I don't know how much vision you 
>> have, but have you used that vision enough that the dog doesn't think 
>> she has to work around things? That could happen, so I'm not asking 
>> it as a way to criticize at all. Do you always correct when she runs 
>> you into things, even if it is just a brush?
>>
>> When you correct, you might want to make her work it again; make her 
>> take you around it and don't just give her a leash correction or 
>> verbal one. Make sure you even correct her if she grazes your arm on 
>> something. Don't save it for the larger infractions.
>>
>>
>> CL
>>
>> On Apr 13, 2012, at 7:59 PM, Hannah Chadwick wrote:
>>
>>> Hey all,
>>> I know that bonding can take up to a year, but I also know that 
>>> Princess shouldn't be walking me in to things. I honestly don't know 
>>> what to do any more because I don't feel like correcting her is 
>>> enough and that after a while she forgets about it altogether.
>>> Today I went to visit the University of Santa Cruz and we went on a
tour.
>>> Princess for some reason walked me in to a pole and as usually I 
>>> corrected her. This has occurred a few times since I last posted 
>>> about it, and it's getting more difficult for me to trust her. I 
>>> don't feel safe walking at night or in the dark now, and it's a 
>>> horrible
> feeling.
>>> Any thoughts, suggestions, advice?
>>> Best, Hannah
>>>
>>>
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