[nagdu] Miniature Horse Article

Tue Apr 24 22:47:12 UTC 2012

Ann, what do you do if you go in to a place to eat? Does your hourse
get under the table? I am about to get my first guide dog and my uncle
insist I get a guide hourse. I would like to look more in to the whole
hourse thing before getting one and maybe next time around I will,
right now I live in an apartment and I am about to get my dog this
june, and so on so on. I really do not want to pass up this chance of
the dog right now. But anyways, I live in North carolina and know that
some of the training is taken place here. How can I learn more about
all this? Thanks.

On 4/24/12, Ann Edie <annedie at nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> Hi, Michael,
>
> Panda doesn't chase tennis balls--they are too big for her to pick up in her
> mouth.  But she does love to retrieve a thrown canvas Frisbee as well as
> other soft toys.  She is a great retriever of dropped objects.  She
> especially likes to retrieve my keys if I drop them, and she will always
> pick up a dropped leash.  Imagine how nice that is!  Instead of running off
> when the leash is inadvertently dropped, your guide calmly picks up the
> leash loop and insists on putting it right back into your hand.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Michael Hingson
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 2:44 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Horse Article
>
> Hi,
>
> I do not use a horse as Ann knows.  However, from my observations a guide
> horse can be quite versatile and can be trained more sufficiently than
> people believe.
>
> I think we all need to step back and take a real look at the abilities of
> these horses.  They bond.  They do work without the need for a second horse.
> The poop issue is addressed.
>
> I don't know if they chase tennis balls, but that is a secondary thing,
> (grin).  They are quite friendly and well behaved, at least the ones I have
> met do well.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>  "Speaking with Vision"
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>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 2:26 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Horse Article
>
> Hi, Frandi,
>
> I'm afraid that your statements with regard to miniature horses do not
> square with the experience of those of us who have trained and worked with
> miniature horse guides for the past decade.  Just as some of the statements
> made by people quoted in the original article, your statements do not seem
> to be based on actual experience or fact.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Frandi Galindo
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 5:26 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Horse Article
>
> The Idea of a guide horse is awesome, but think about it.  There are more
> things that a guide horse has to carry.  I don't think you can train a horse
> to only pea or poop in the grass.  Unlike a horse, a dog can tuck itself in
> under a table, or on a bus, a car or a boat, I am sure you all know where I
> am going with this.  Also, with a horse, you have to have at least two of
> them one to keep the other company as they are herd animals.  I know dogs
> are pack animals, but its different.  Not sure how to explain it, but it
> just is.  Don't get me wrong, like I said it would be awesome to have
> another animal other than a dog as a guide, and I am sure horses could do
> the job as they are very, very intelligent.  There are so many more things I
> could say, but we'll leave this email short.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J.
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 8:06 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Minature Horse Article
>
> Lyn,
>
> Is the Woman's Day article  available on the internet anywhere?  I'd love to
> read it.  I know your friend in the article and admire her a lot.  I hope
> the article does her justice.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
>
> On 4/23/2012 7:28 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>> Hi Rebecca,
>> I would imagine there was similar things said about dogs back in the
>> early days of guide dogs that we see today about the guide horses.
>>
>> Back in Morris Frank's time (1920s) people didn't bring dogs around
>> with them like people do today.  Our society is much more dog-friendly
>> now than it was then.  The society wasn't even disable-friendly as it
>> is today.  Back in Morris's time, blind people didn't get out and
>> around like now because they didn't even have the long white cane to
>> enable folks to travel independently.
>>
>> I think one of the problems that guide horses will have over guide
>> dogs is that dogs do live indoors - our homes -  and horses do not.
>> Horses are considered barn animals.  But, like guide dogs in Morris
>> Frank's time, guide horses will gain acceptance as people get familiar
>> with them.
>>
>> If anyone reads Woman's Day Magazine, the current issue - May 2012 -
>> there is an article about a good friend of mine who is training her
>> miniature horse, Angel, to be a guide.  My friend is in contact with
>> several guide horse users.  Read it if you can.
>>
>> Like guide dogs, I think the horses will have to prove themselves.
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 8:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Minature Horse Article
>>
>>
>>>        Anybody know if the critisism raised about guide horses was
>>> also raised about guide dogs back in the day? I.E. Dogs live outside,
>>> they aren't house-broken, that sort of thing.
>>> I don't recall seeing critisism of that flavor in my reading of the
>>> Seeing Eye.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Steven Johnson
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 8:26 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users'; wagdu at nfbwis.org
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Minature Horse Article
>>>
>>> A horse is a horse, of course.
>>>
>>> That's why business owners are getting nervous about a new federal
>>> regulation requiring a particular breed of horse to be allowed into
>>> shops and restaurants across the country.
>>>
>>> The Justice Department regulations were tailored for so-called "service"
>>> horses -- miniature horses that, like service dogs, accompany the
>>> blind and others with disabilities to help them get around.
>>>
>>> But the rules were a lawsuit waiting to happen, according to critics.
>>> And
>>> sure enough, a suit was filed earlier this month in Los Angeles, by a
>>> man who uses a wheelchair and keeps a miniature horse named Princess
>>> -- and who claims a local GameStop and Marshalls refused him and his
>>> horse service.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Related Slideshow
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Miniature horses -- pet, livestock or service animal?
>>>
>>>
>>> Heard of seeing-eye dogs? There's an alternative. Miniature horses,
>>> while commonly kept on farms, can also be used as "service" animals
>>> -- to help the blind and disabled get around. A federal rule
>>> requiring businesses to let them inside has stirred concern of
>>> lawsuits. The dispute doesn't distract from their cuteness, though.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The case, as well as the regulation, has drawn concern from at least
>>> one lawmaker on Capitol Hill, as well as the National Restaurant
>>> Association.
>>>
>>> "I like horses. My daughter likes horses. But even in the Wild West,
>>> they put them outside," said Angelo Amador, vice president of the
>>> restaurant association.
>>>
>>> The organization has a few gripes. First, many business owners just
>>> don't know about the rule, and are only familiar with dogs being a
>>> traditional service animal. Amador said those that do know have
>>> concerns the animals aren't housebroken.
>>>
>>> "You cannot train a horse ... housebreak them like you would do with
>>> a dog,"
>>> he said.
>>>
>>> The owner could claim the horse is housebroken, but if that turns out
>>> not to be the case then the business has a sanitation problem on its
>>> hands -- rather, its floor.
>>>
>>> "After the deed is done, you have a number of other issues in the
>>> restaurant," Amador said. "It's kind of like damned if you do, and
>>> damned if you don't."
>>>
>>> Rep. Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, cast the rule as a case of Washington
>>> overreach
>>> -- hardly one to resist a pun, he accused the Justice Department of
>>> "making more hay" for trial attorneys.
>>>
>>> "Do we really need to saddle businesses with more regulation? I say,
>>> 'Naaayyy.' Every scenario in life does not need a rule or
>>> regulation," he said in a statement to FoxNews.com.
>>>
>>> The regulations on service animals were first put out in September
>>> 2010, as part of the Americans With Disabilities Act.
>>>
>>> The rules, which went into effect later, actually narrowed down what
>>> used to be a broad definition for service animals. For most purposes,
>>> the Justice Department decided to recognize only dogs -- but the
>>> department added an exception for miniature horses after being
>>> "persuaded" regarding their benefits to the disabled.
>>>
>>> The guidelines noted that the horses can be "viable alternatives" for
>>> people who are allergic to dogs or whose religious beliefs do not
>>> allow them to be around dogs.
>>>
>>> "Another consideration mentioned in favor of the use of miniature
>>> horses is the longer life span," the guidelines said. They can
>>> provide "service" to the disabled for more than 25 years, as opposed
>>> to roughly seven working years for the typical dog. Plus the horses,
>>> despite their petite size, can be stronger.
>>>
>>> That was the case for Jose Estrada, the plaintiff in the case filed
>>> this month in Los Angeles court.
>>>
>>> His attorney, Morse Mehrban, told FoxNews.com that a dog "doesn't
>>> have the sufficient strength to pull him in his wheelchair."
>>>
>>> So Estrada, a paraplegic, uses a 29-inch-high miniature horse named
>>> Princess. According to the complaint, the two retail stores being
>>> sued "refused to permit said animal" inside along with Estrada last
> month.
>>> The
>>> suit says Princess "is housebroken" and would not "compromise" the
>>> safety of those two stores.
>>>
>>> "Apparently, they don't understand that a miniature horse can be a
>>> service animal," Mehrban said.
>>>
>>> Estrada is suing for "no less than" $4,000 in damages.
>>>
>>> The federal rules state that businesses should allow in the horses as
>>> long as they're trained, considering such factors as the size of the
>>> horse, whether it's under control, whether it's "housebroken," and
>>> whether its presence would compromise "legitimate safety
>>> requirements."
>>>
>>> Amador says the horses cannot be housebroken.
>>>
>>> The Guide Horse Foundation, though, says on its website that the
>>> horses "learn exactly the same behaviors as a guide dog," and that
>>> they "never bite or kick except when attacked."
>>>
>>> The organization could not be reached for comment.
>>>
>>> The use of miniature horses as service animals, though, has created a
>>> bit of a rift in the miniature horse community.
>>>
>>> The American Miniature Horse Association does not condone the use of
>>> miniature horses for that purpose. Association President Harry Elder
>>> applauded those who have received "ADA certification" to train
>>> animals but questioned the use of miniature horses.
>>>
>>> "Although the American Miniature Horse is bred to be intelligent,
>>> curious, gentle, sensible, willing to cooperate and easy to train, it
>>> remains in all respects physically and instinctively a true horse.
>>> The American Miniature Horse can be readily trained to be lead or
>>> driven but, in most cases, it would not make a suitable replacement
>>> for an animal such as a guide dog," he said in a statement.
>>>
>>> According to the group, there are 200,000 miniature horses registered
>>> with the organization around the world, though it's unclear how many
>>> are used as service animals in the U.S.
>>>
>>> Other retail groups are taking the Justice Department rule in stride
>>> and say they're trying to follow it. Mallory Duncan, senior vice
>>> president with the National Retail Federation, said the group is
>>> continuing to hold talks on "how best to comply."
>>>
>>> "Retailers are sensitive to the many challenges confronting our
>>> customers and work to reasonably accommodate all shoppers when and
>>> where appropriate,"
>>> Duncan said. "Retailers must remain cognizant of the unique
>>> challenges service animals present in the retail setting in order to
>>> best protect and serve the general public."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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