[nagdu] How would you respond?

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Tue Apr 24 22:53:10 UTC 2012 

Right on!  Every situation is different.  however, I've known folks who have 
aggressive or otherwise misbehing dogs who were able to go to different 
schools and come out with the same issues.  Coincidence,  I think not! 
Maybe the black listing thing is a little harsh but especially where 
aggressive behavior is concerned, that should be tracked somehow.  The first 
school, maybe nothing!  The seventh, well?  I also have great respect for 
guides and there handlers!  They are trained to have a particualar 
relationship with one another.  "The dogs and handlers both interac5t with 
on another in ways that most peopole don't get.  This is why my initial 
reaction was so strong!  Us handlers are taught more than the average pet 
owners whether we teach ourselves or are taught by schools.  I have a little 
pet dog whom I really have to watch around little kids.  Some of these 
little people have thrown rocks and just generally tried to torment him.  If 
he were to haul off and bite one I might think, goodie!  Hope he tasted 
yummy!!  But, I would be responsible for his medical bills and anything else 
a judge might award them.  Also, they might rule that my dog must be put 
down even though he may have felt he had a very good reason to eat the wee 
ones!  So, when the kids are around, we keep a close eye or ear on him to 
avoid all of that nastiness!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?


> Larry,
>
> Well, I get it. My knee jerk reaction was to think of some exotic fates 
> for the other handler... Putting myself in the other handler's place, I 
> had to walk away lest I blurt out what I would do with the knowledge it 
> was another guide dog team in a training center for the blind...
>
> I do agree with others that, without fuller facts or information about the 
> other handler's contribution to or simple inability to control the attack, 
> the black listing judgment is premature... If it does turn out that it is 
> clear the handler of the attacking dog somehow contributed to that 
> behavior... Well, Then that's a big concern. Sometimes dogs are just dogs, 
> as people have said. Sometimes dogs are what their people have made of 
> them. What caused this dog's behavior does need to be looked into. Dogs 
> are dogs, but that doesn't mean they leap on other dogs without a reason, 
> at least one that makes sense to them. So what was this dog's reason? 
> Tumor? Genetics? Something in the raising/training process before the 
> handler ever met the dog? How long had the handler had this dog? Had there 
> been warning signs before? If so, had the handler contacted the school and 
> was the school working with the handler to correct them or career change 
> the dog? Or were they telling the handler to give it time or some fool 
> thing like that? And so on.
>
> But, if there is sound evidence that the handler was doing something to 
> contribute to the dog's aggression... Well, there are legal remedies to be 
> pursued. And a good evaluation for the handler... If there are reasons to 
> believe this has been or will be a pattern of behavior in the handler, 
> then the schools might talk to each other about it. How does that even 
> work? I dunno?
>
> Back to my own knee jerk reaction... It occurs to me that while I have a 
> strategy for dealing with random loose dog attack, I may need to calm down 
> and think through the plan for if it's another guide dog in a place of 
> public accommodation, as in this case. I must have higher expectations for 
> guide dog users and their dogs or something, because when I think what I 
> would do at the time if it were my dog under attack... I having some 
> serious aggression issues of my own and should probably not be allowed in 
> public without a muzzle. /lol/ What *do* you do at time like that? Besides 
> keep your dog from being hurt, if possible, and keeping yourself safe if 
> possible. Would I take the same approach to an aggressive dog as I would 
> with a loose dog? Before layin into the handler, I mean? I don't plan to 
> find out, and I don't know any teams I'm worried about. I hope I get to 
> keep wondering what my response would be. Yikes!
>
> Tami
>
> On 04/24/2012 07:26 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>> Yes, because the thing is that you are supposed to be able to control 
>> your dog!  You are supposed to do this under all circumstances.  Those 
>> whom have pet dogs that do this can be sued and have to pay fines or in 
>> some circumstances go to jail!  There is no excuse for letting your dog 
>> attack another dog!  If its the dog fault, the handler should know 
>> his-her dog well enough to keep it out of those situations!  If the dog 
>> was offleash, he gets what he gets!  If not black listed then certainly 
>> observed very carefuly when next going through a training program!  I 
>> know folks who have had guide dogs that value a little aggression.  I 
>> don't believe in any aggressive dog who's handler can't control it.  I'm 
>> suggesting that sence the dog and handler are both members of a team, 
>> they should know each other and how they will react!  A new team might 
>> get some leanency because they might not know each other well but 
>> otherwise.  This society puts down dogs who become aggressive to humans. 
>> The assumption I am making is that both parties should have had control 
>> of there dogs and the one who was the attacker should have been 
>> controlled!  Nothing hard or complicated about that!
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Meghan Whalen" <mewhalen at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>
>>
>>> Wow...this message sure is full of assumptions.  The person should be 
>>> black listed because he or she received a dog which attacked another 
>>> dog. I do not think dogs are taught aggression.  I think dogs will be 
>>> dogs, and it is very unfortunate that this happened, but in no way, 
>>> what-so-ever does that mean this handler should never have a guide 
>>> again.  My first guide bit one of my pet dogs.  I should probably have 
>>> never been given another dog, then, I suppose.  I must have taught her 
>>> to bite.  Shame on me.
>>>
>>> I am sorry this message comes off as rude, but I am really really tired 
>>> of people assuming it is the person's fault.  We talk about wanting to 
>>> be treated fairly and equally by guide dog training programs.  We say 
>>> that we are adults and should be treated as such, and then, more than 
>>> one person I have come across automatically blames the handler.  If I 
>>> buy a new microwave, and I bring it home and plug it in and it doesn't 
>>> work, did I do something wrong?  No, there was a problem with the 
>>> manufacturing of the product.  If I bring a dog home, and that dog does 
>>> not guide effectively, or she barks and/or growls at other dogs, that is 
>>> not my fault, either. That does not mean I should not work with the dog 
>>> to improve the problems if it seems they could be fixed, but the handler 
>>> is not always responsible for what the dog does or does not know. 
>>> Please recall that before a dog is matched with a blind person, the dog 
>>> has had a year and a half to two years growing and learning and having 
>>> experiences we will never know about.  I am very disappointed in people 
>>> who would not wish to be treated in exactly the way they are treating 
>>> people who cannot defend themselves.
>>>
>>> Meghan
>>> On 4/24/2012 4:45 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>>>> Oh, thats bad!  Guides are deffinetely not supposed to do that!  I 
>>>> think both schools should be contacted and the case should be taken to 
>>>> court. I get the feeling that someone really relaxed there control of 
>>>> there dog! The attacker should be subject to the fullness of the law! 
>>>> And maybe even black listed with all of the schools!
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Johnson" 
>>>> <blinddog3 at charter.net>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 12:17 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Julie,
>>>>> Both dogs were guides.  What I do not know if they were both in 
>>>>> harness, but
>>>>> both students were attending the blind skills training program and had 
>>>>> their
>>>>> guides there as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Julie J.
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 9:37 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd find out who the owner of the dog was.  If there are state laws
>>>>> addressing this issue, I'd have a visit with the police and file the
>>>>> appropriate paperwork.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea what I'd do about my own dog though.  Probably take it 
>>>>> very
>>>>> easy for a while.  then very gently introduce calm, gentle dogs to see 
>>>>> how
>>>>> it went.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or was the other dog also a guide?  I wasn't exactly sure from your
>>>>> description of things.  I don't know that that would substantially 
>>>>> change my
>>>>> approach, except that I might also let the program know that I was 
>>>>> filing a
>>>>> report with the police.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>> On 4/23/2012 5:51 PM, Steven Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> Another what would you do question, or maybe, how would you respond
>>>>>> scenarios for you all to ponder.  Many times, we hear of guides and
>>>>>> other service dogs being attacked by other stray or uncontrolled 
>>>>>> dogs,
>>>>>> rendering the attacked dog unable to continue in their line of work.
>>>>>> Today, I learned from a colleague at work, that her son's good 
>>>>>> friend,
>>>>>> who is blind and attending a formal blind training program, had his
>>>>>> dog viciously attacked by another dog.  The injuries were severe, the
>>>>>> attacked was unprovoked and the trainers had to break up the fight,
>>>>>> but the guide that was attacked, is now showing very serious signs of 
>>>>>> fear
>>>>> and anxiety.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would you do if you were the handler?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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