[nagdu] howling was RE: Amazing dogs?

Wed Apr 25 19:43:30 UTC 2012

Lol Tami. That is pretty funny.
Yes, poodles can be very very stubborn and I hope I can find the key soon.
Thank you

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tami Kinney
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:20 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] howling was RE: Amazing dogs?

Yup. I bit the puppy. /lol/ Not hard, but I was trying to get her to settle
and submit but didn't have a hand free for the finger version of the mama
bite on the back of the neck. Still, I was a little surprised to find my
teeth full of puppy fur. /lol/ It worked, though. She's a sweet, sweet, kid,
but very strong-willed and independent. Once she started really growing and
we begin to realize how big she is likely to be, I decided to put some
effort into establishing my authority at the outset. Gently, but I put some
alpha games into some our play and stuff. 
Now that she is past the 6 month mark, we're doing more obedience and she's
doing great on leash obedience and stuff. She responds very well, and
appears to have some brains. But with her size and strength, I'm stricter
with her than I might otherwise be. I like having my arms attached to my
body. /lol/

It is very odd adapting back to a dawg puppy after Mitzi poodle. At Zay's
age, she was a constant motion machine. I think she finally took a good nap
one day when she was three... Good grief! She had that poodle brand of
obstinacy that you are becoming familiar with, but it's not the same as the
challenge to the alpha. Mitzi just believes that she should be the one to
decide what to do, so that is what she will do. So treating her rebellion as
a dog-like defiance of authority got me nowhere at all. But I remembered
reading that poodles are in temperament very much like Arabian horses, which
is why I ended up getting one of the silly beasts, really. Apparently, I
like that sort of thing. But I fell back on my experience with those horses
to build the concept of obedience and get her convinced that, no, really, I
*am* the boss of her. /lol/

As a trainer once told me: Once you find the key to the poodle, the poodle
will give you the world just to make you happy. But you have to do it their
way. Again, very like Arabians.

So that is one reason I tried the Halti, then got a GL which is easier to
take on and off, for a more passive control. I used it more to inhibit her
stubborn self from what she wanted without actually fighting her or
correcting her. She responded much better. Also, positive reinforcement and
patience. So, with or without the GL, when she would get flighty and
squirrel or kitty focused, I could simply plant my feet for my own safety
and stand firm while she got it out of her system without being able to get
anywhere. At first, this could be a bit of a prolonged process. There I
would be, just standing on the side walk with a crazy black puff ball
bouncing beside me... Going nowhere. Oh, I felt so dignified! /lol/ Silly
poodle would actually rear and buck like a wild bronc. So I would call it
"rodeo guide."

Still, since she figured out that it just wasn't going to get her more than
frustration to do that, she started to give up the habit. So I could feel
her start to do the squirrel/kitty bounce and remind her to leave it
forward, then reward her for doing that.

Anyway, the poodle obstinacy can be quite daunting when you're not used to
it. But when it's applied in a positive way to the job and the poodle learns
to take responsibility... It's really pretty great. Although I will admit
that when I first changed from trainer to handler, and Mitzi gained
experience and that sense of responsibility and safety consciousness got
really strong, I had to work on myself to remember that I was still in
charge. She's a good decision maker, but I am still the boss who needs to
sign off on her decisions. It took patience, especially while I was learning
to trust her and let her do the guiding without my instruction, but now I
just love it!

  Best with your squirly girl. It sounds like you understand the safety
concerns involved in working with her particular quirks, which is a
*very* good thing. I hope you are able to find the key to your Princess so
that she will use those energies and brains to keep you safe!

Best,

Tami

On 04/24/2012 01:38 PM, Hannah Chadwick wrote:
> Tami,
> "you stupid mut", lol that's pretty hilarious. I don't do the getting 
> in my dog's face thing because I was bitten when I was little and I 
> still carry that fear with me to this day.
> I do hold her muzzle at times but most of the time I just turn her 
> away from the distraction.
> Did you seriously bight your dog? lol
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Tami Kinney
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 11:18 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] howling was RE: Amazing dogs?
>
> Hannah,
>
> The version of the muzzle hold I use on Mitzi is to place my hands 
> straight along the sides of her muzzle from behind. If she's being 
> super stubborn about not being quiet on command, I will cup my fingers 
> around her mouth to hold it gently closed, unless she is really 
> determined, then I will tighten the hold enough to prevent her opening 
> her mouth. I will ask her to be quiet while acknowledging that she is 
> telling me about something, which seems to let her know she has done her
job.
> Unless she is just having a bark fit because she feels like it. She 
> doesn't do that in the harness, but every now and then she decides she 
> must stand in the back yard and bark just to be barking. Or have a 
> nice howl. /lol/
>
> With that muzzle hold, she pulls away, but she does not like such 
> treatment, so I have her attention. I will generally use my calm, firm 
> voice to repeat quiet... Or shut up you stupid mutt! /lol/ She's more 
> likely to be this obstinate out in the yard, really. If we're on a 
> walk on leash or if she is working, then I can just direct her forward 
> and be insistent. She was being that way a couple of days ago, just 
> walking around, but then she gave it up and just prances at the things 
> she was barking at the day before. So I praised her for that and laughed,
which is good reward for her.
>
> I don't know if I've ever tried growling with her... Or the looking in 
> the face with my Alpha B look... Just seems to make her more 
> obstinate, doing it that way. So I looked for other approaches...
>
> When she decided to try barking in public places, I could cheerfully 
> have killed her. But correction didn't work, the muzzle hold didn't 
> work... Well, I tried a stronger correction than usual, which made the 
> behavior more hardened, so then I had more of a problem. Sigh.
>
> If she was really, really excited, what I started doing was the 
> calming body hold, a la the Dog Whisperer. I would hold her leash in 
> one hand and drop the harness handle and bend over her with my arm 
> along her side and my hand over her foreleg, lightly, enough to 
> contain and limit the bouncing and prancing. I discovered I could feel 
> her heart rate that way, going at hummingbird speed. With her 
> contained by my one arm I would then put my other arm across her chest 
> so my hand was curled around her neck, preventing forward leaping and 
> also allowing me to feel her tension. Then i could talk to her and 
> kind of adjust how I was dealing with her while noting when her heart 
> rate slowed... Then, figuring she could listen to sense, I would work 
> some obedience with her or address whatever caused all that excitement to
teach her to remain calm when it was going on.
>
> So for barking in harness, I finally was able to simply draw her head 
> away from the distraction and spend less time on the calming hold. I 
> would also run my hand along her throat until the barking muscles 
> relaxed. Then reward her with high-value treats. Or smelly treats, as 
> I call them. /smile/ I was then able to start to use the smelly treats 
> to gain her attention and draw her stubborn nose away from the
distraction.
> And so on.
>
> It took a lot of patience and consistency, but now if she is startled 
> by something and wants to vocalize, she pretty much settles herself. 
> But I still always praise and give a food reward if it's convenient. 
> Just to reinforce that good behavior! /smile/ If she is having a 
> squirly day, then I will do calming stuff and redirection more than 
> correction. The correction is most likely still to just set off her
obstinate streak.
> Calming and exerting my authority in other ways gets better results, 
> so that's how we roll. Also, I talk to her while I'm calming and 
> redirecting, since she likes a good chat. I feel fairly silly at 
> times, but whatever works. /grin/
>
> Oh, with a pup that is a different kind of obstinate, if very sweet, I 
> have growled at her, and it has worked. Once, when I had my hands full 
> of squirmy little brick and couldn't do that mama pinch on the back of 
> the neck, I actually bit her. Hadn't planned to, so I was as surprised 
> as she was, but she did settle down. I have not bitten her again. 
> /lol/ I do growl at times with the neck pinch or nose pinch to simulate
that form of dog discipline.
> That would never work with Mitzi poodle, but the puppy got the 
> message. Call me Big Momma! /lol/
>
> Tami
>
> On 04/23/2012 01:02 PM, Hannah Chadwick wrote:
>> Lisa,
>> I've done that a few times but there's a small part of me that's 
>> afraid she'd bight. While I know she absolutely won't, I have a 
>> difficult time bringing myself to do it because I was bitten when I 
>> was younger and there's still the fear in me. However, this technique 
>> sometimes does work but other times she just pulls away.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Lisa belville
>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 10:33 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] howling was RE: Amazing dogs?
>>
>> wow, I didn't get that part.  Maybe leaning over and getting right in 
>> Princess's face while using a hand to clamp shut that long poodly 
>> muzzle and growling quiet would be a good idea, too.  My last dog was 
>> a mumbler, so I'd have to do this when he was getting too vocal for 
>> the
> situation.
>> I'd have to know, too, does she do the howling in harness, out of 
>> harness, or all three?  Definitely, I wouldn't want it going on in 
>> harness, but it would be easier to manage if she did it while not
working.
>>
>>
>> 1st Law of Procrastination: that which can be done will be done . . .
>> TOMORROW!!
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marsha Drenth"<marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 11:20 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] howling was RE: Amazing dogs?
>>
>>
>>> Hannah,
>>>
>>> I think I read your below message right. Your saying that when your 
>>> pup sees a squirrel, she howls? Have you tried to say "quiet". Not 
>>> sure if that is a command they teach at Pilot. I haven't had a pup 
>>> that howls. But I am sure there is someone on here that could help 
>>> you resolve that issue.
>>>
>>> What do you guys think?
>>>
>>> Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Hannah Chadwick
>>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 11:54 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Amazing dogs?
>>>
>>> Tracy,
>>> I just feel like I come up with one thing or another every week. It 
>>> horrible! Lol.
>>> I'm sure I can compromise, and live with a lot of things, but there 
>>> are things I just can't stand like howling and not responding 
>>> because of a squirrel.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 8:48 AM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Amazing dogs?
>>>
>>> So Hannah, you think the rest of us all have amazing dogs?  That's nice!
>>> It seems to me I'm always poor-mouthing my Benny boy.  He has some 
>>> amazing qualities, but he has his faults, too.  And some of them are
>>> 2 sides of the same coin.  For example, I love his cocky 
>>> self-confidence.  I'm sure it helps him cope with the big bad city.
>>> But it also makes him hard to correct, since he's so sure he's right 
>>> in whatever he wants to do.
>>>
>>> Every dog has faults, to some degree or other.  And every person has 
>>> to decide, with every dog, these things:
>>> Is this fault so serious that I'm unsafe?  Can this fault be fixed, 
>>> and, if so, how?  If it can't be fixed, can I live with it?
>>> And the ones I can live with, if I must, may not be the same ones 
>>> you can live with, and vice versa.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>>
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