[nagdu] How would you respond?

Thu Apr 26 15:14:11 UTC 2012

Yes, Bob, this, this and this.

Katy is one of those dogs that can go from zero to completely distracted in 
a nano second.  We've been together for going on six years, and luckily Now 
I can analyze her movements and nine times out of ten, I can catch her in 
the process and draw her focus away from the distraction or administer the 
calm petting I mentioned the other day.  But there's always the chance of 
that tenth time when I'm distracted by something in my environment or just 
thinking of something other than Katy.  The issue for me is that Katy isn't 
aggressive.  She wants to play and socialize, but she's never aggressive, 
although some people and dogs could always interpret it that way, which is 
why I try hard to be observant.

We've also got to consider that these dogs are very receptive to eye contact 
from people and other dogs.  It could be that the two dogs were sizing each 
other up while their handlers were otherwise occupied and instantly decided 
they had a mutual hate on for each other.  Most of our dogs are in good 
shape, so very physically strong, and this strength combined with 
unpredicted movement can bring a not so bad situation into the red zone in a 
flash.  No one has those necessary reflexes all of the time.  Look at 
sighted people who get into vehicle accidents.  It's the same type of issue 
where lightening fast reflexes are called for, but the person couldn't react 
fast enough.  That's why it's called an accident.

Should the handler of the dog who initiated the attack take responsibility? 
Absolutely.  should his/her school be notified?  Yes, and hopefully, the 
handler was on the ball and did this before anyone else did

But to say that the handler shouldn't be allowed to train with another dog 
or that his dog should be euthanized is a bit much at this point.

Lisa

When life gives you lemons, throw them at something.  Always makes me feel 
better.
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Hooper" <hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?

> "supposed to be able to" and "able to" are totally different things. In a 
> perfect world, the handler would be intimately familiar with his/her dog's 
> every thought and movement. However, if you are not expecting your dog to 
> go after another, it may be easy to lose control. I don't white knuckle 
> Bailey's leash, and it's unrealistic to expect humans to be hypervigilent 
> 100% of the time. Some humans are hypervigilent 100% of the time--and 
> that's a disorder. It's called post-traumatic stress disorder and can be 
> very debilitating. The point is healthy functioning people cannot expect 
> the worst all the time and react quickly enough to prevent it. I'm quite 
> sure if I were talking to somebody and Bailey was sitting quietly at my 
> side, he could decide to run off and manage to jerk his leash out of my 
> hand while my attention wasn't completely focused on him. A well trained 
> dog is likely to be under control, but you never know what might trigger 
> some dogs. Some dogs come with instabiliti
> es about which we handlers have no idea until it's too late. I still 
> discover little things about my dog that I didn't know--thankfully, none 
> of his quirks are nothing more than personality traits.
> You can't fault the handler for "not knowing" their dog's every thought, 
> even a handler who has had their dog for a while. Dogs change just like 
> people with age, and as well as you know a person or dog, you never live 
> in their head--and with a dog, you have to guess about what they think and 
> feel, as they can't talk to you--granted, many of those guesses are good 
> ones, but there have to be some that are not.
> As for the handler being scrutinized carefully before the receipt of the 
> next dog, nobody has the right to say that this should happen unless they 
> know the details of the situation--hearsay evidence isn't enough to say 
> "it is the handler's fault." Sometimes the handler is just as much a 
> victim as the other dog or team. Imagine the feeling if your sweet fluffy 
> animal turned aggressive for a few seconds-because a few seconds is all 
> that's needed to destroy the confidence, trust, and health of two teams. 
> Maybe this handler is a negligent handler--however, drawing conclusions or 
> saying that the handler should be scrutinized cannot be determined with 
> the scant information we have about the situation.
> Finally, I doubt that the handler "let" their dog attack the other. As 
> said, if it was unexpected, the handler might have lost control, and it is 
> unwise to try and regain control during a dog fight.
> Robert Hooper
> Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu
> The Ohio State University
> 0653 Buckeye-Cuyahoga CT
> 653 Cuyahoga Court
> Columbus, Ohio 43210
> (740) 856-8195
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf 
> Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:26 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>
> Yes, because the thing is that you are supposed to be able to control your 
> dog!  You are supposed to do this under all circumstances.  Those whom 
> have pet dogs that do this can be sued and have to pay fines or in some 
> circumstances go to jail!  There is no excuse for letting your dog attack 
> another dog!  If its the dog fault, the handler should know his-her dog 
> well enough to keep it out of those situations!  If the dog was offleash, 
> he gets what he gets!  If not black listed then certainly observed very 
> carefuly when next going through a training program!  I know folks who 
> have had guide dogs that value a little aggression.  I don't believe in 
> any aggressive dog who's handler can't control it.  I'm suggesting that 
> sence the dog and handler are both members of a team, they should know 
> each other and how they will react!  A new team might get some leanency 
> because they might not know each other well but otherwise.  This society 
> puts down dogs who become aggressive to humans.
> The assumption I am making is that both parties should have had control of 
> there dogs and the one who was the attacker should have been controlled! 
> Nothing hard or complicated about that!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Meghan Whalen" <mewhalen at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>
>
>> Wow...this message sure is full of assumptions.  The person should be
>> black listed because he or she received a dog which attacked another dog.
>> I do not think dogs are taught aggression.  I think dogs will be dogs,
>> and it is very unfortunate that this happened, but in no way,
>> what-so-ever does that mean this handler should never have a guide
>> again.  My first guide bit one of my pet dogs.  I should probably have
>> never been given another dog, then, I suppose.  I must have taught her
>> to bite.  Shame on me.
>>
>> I am sorry this message comes off as rude, but I am really really
>> tired of people assuming it is the person's fault.  We talk about
>> wanting to be treated fairly and equally by guide dog training
>> programs.  We say that we are adults and should be treated as such,
>> and then, more than one person I have come across automatically blames
>> the handler.  If I buy a new microwave, and I bring it home and plug
>> it in and it doesn't work, did I do something wrong?  No, there was a
>> problem with the manufacturing of the product.  If I bring a dog home,
>> and that dog does not guide effectively, or she barks and/or growls at 
>> other dogs, that is not my fault, either.
>> That does not mean I should not work with the dog to improve the
>> problems if it seems they could be fixed, but the handler is not
>> always responsible for what the dog does or does not know.  Please
>> recall that before a dog is matched with a blind person, the dog has
>> had a year and a half to two years growing and learning and having
>> experiences we will never know about.  I am very disappointed in
>> people who would not wish to be treated in exactly the way they are 
>> treating people who cannot defend themselves.
>>
>> Meghan
>> On 4/24/2012 4:45 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>>> Oh, thats bad!  Guides are deffinetely not supposed to do that!  I
>>> think both schools should be contacted and the case should be taken to 
>>> court.
>>> I get the feeling that someone really relaxed there control of there 
>>> dog!
>>> The attacker should be subject to the fullness of the law!  And maybe
>>> even black listed with all of the schools!
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Johnson"
>>> <blinddog3 at charter.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 12:17 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Julie,
>>>> Both dogs were guides.  What I do not know if they were both in
>>>> harness, but both students were attending the blind skills training
>>>> program and had their guides there as well.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 9:37 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>>>
>>>> I'd find out who the owner of the dog was.  If there are state laws
>>>> addressing this issue, I'd have a visit with the police and file the
>>>> appropriate paperwork.
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea what I'd do about my own dog though.  Probably take
>>>> it very easy for a while.  then very gently introduce calm, gentle
>>>> dogs to see how it went.
>>>>
>>>> Or was the other dog also a guide?  I wasn't exactly sure from your
>>>> description of things.  I don't know that that would substantially
>>>> change my approach, except that I might also let the program know
>>>> that I was filing a report with the police.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>> On 4/23/2012 5:51 PM, Steven Johnson wrote:
>>>>> Another what would you do question, or maybe, how would you respond
>>>>> scenarios for you all to ponder.  Many times, we hear of guides and
>>>>> other service dogs being attacked by other stray or uncontrolled
>>>>> dogs, rendering the attacked dog unable to continue in their line of 
>>>>> work.
>>>>> Today, I learned from a colleague at work, that her son's good
>>>>> friend, who is blind and attending a formal blind training program,
>>>>> had his dog viciously attacked by another dog.  The injuries were
>>>>> severe, the attacked was unprovoked and the trainers had to break
>>>>> up the fight, but the guide that was attacked, is now showing very
>>>>> serious signs of fear
>>>> and anxiety.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would you do if you were the handler?
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.
>>>>>
>>>>>
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