[nagdu] How would you respond?
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Thu Apr 26 16:52:16 UTC 2012
Yah Lisa. I try to be observant almost all of the time. I tend to get
distracted a little more than Holly does. Holly is one of the most laid
back and nonaggressive dogs I know. But when in new situations or around
new dogs I am always observqant. For example, I am going bowling at our
state tournament tomorrow. Myy friend and I haven't seen each other in
years! His dog is reported to be friendly as well as mine is. However, the
dogs for some unknown reason may not like each other. I truly don't see
this happening but, I'm sure we'd rather be safe than sorry! We'll probably
let them sniff each other while working and if that goes well, I imagine
they'll park together and be able to play on leash. If it looks like they
are getting grumpy, then we'll pull them away from one another and correct
them.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa belville" <missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
> Yes, Bob, this, this and this.
>
> Katy is one of those dogs that can go from zero to completely distracted
> in a nano second. We've been together for going on six years, and luckily
> Now I can analyze her movements and nine times out of ten, I can catch her
> in the process and draw her focus away from the distraction or administer
> the calm petting I mentioned the other day. But there's always the chance
> of that tenth time when I'm distracted by something in my environment or
> just thinking of something other than Katy. The issue for me is that Katy
> isn't aggressive. She wants to play and socialize, but she's never
> aggressive, although some people and dogs could always interpret it that
> way, which is why I try hard to be observant.
>
> We've also got to consider that these dogs are very receptive to eye
> contact from people and other dogs. It could be that the two dogs were
> sizing each other up while their handlers were otherwise occupied and
> instantly decided they had a mutual hate on for each other. Most of our
> dogs are in good shape, so very physically strong, and this strength
> combined with unpredicted movement can bring a not so bad situation into
> the red zone in a flash. No one has those necessary reflexes all of the
> time. Look at sighted people who get into vehicle accidents. It's the
> same type of issue where lightening fast reflexes are called for, but the
> person couldn't react fast enough. That's why it's called an accident.
>
> Should the handler of the dog who initiated the attack take
> responsibility? Absolutely. should his/her school be notified? Yes, and
> hopefully, the handler was on the ball and did this before anyone else did
>
> But to say that the handler shouldn't be allowed to train with another dog
> or that his dog should be euthanized is a bit much at this point.
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
>
>
> When life gives you lemons, throw them at something. Always makes me feel
> better.
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Hooper" <hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>
>
>> "supposed to be able to" and "able to" are totally different things. In a
>> perfect world, the handler would be intimately familiar with his/her
>> dog's every thought and movement. However, if you are not expecting your
>> dog to go after another, it may be easy to lose control. I don't white
>> knuckle Bailey's leash, and it's unrealistic to expect humans to be
>> hypervigilent 100% of the time. Some humans are hypervigilent 100% of the
>> time--and that's a disorder. It's called post-traumatic stress disorder
>> and can be very debilitating. The point is healthy functioning people
>> cannot expect the worst all the time and react quickly enough to prevent
>> it. I'm quite sure if I were talking to somebody and Bailey was sitting
>> quietly at my side, he could decide to run off and manage to jerk his
>> leash out of my hand while my attention wasn't completely focused on him.
>> A well trained dog is likely to be under control, but you never know what
>> might trigger some dogs. Some dogs come with instabiliti
>> es about which we handlers have no idea until it's too late. I still
>> discover little things about my dog that I didn't know--thankfully, none
>> of his quirks are nothing more than personality traits.
>> You can't fault the handler for "not knowing" their dog's every thought,
>> even a handler who has had their dog for a while. Dogs change just like
>> people with age, and as well as you know a person or dog, you never live
>> in their head--and with a dog, you have to guess about what they think
>> and feel, as they can't talk to you--granted, many of those guesses are
>> good ones, but there have to be some that are not.
>> As for the handler being scrutinized carefully before the receipt of the
>> next dog, nobody has the right to say that this should happen unless they
>> know the details of the situation--hearsay evidence isn't enough to say
>> "it is the handler's fault." Sometimes the handler is just as much a
>> victim as the other dog or team. Imagine the feeling if your sweet fluffy
>> animal turned aggressive for a few seconds-because a few seconds is all
>> that's needed to destroy the confidence, trust, and health of two teams.
>> Maybe this handler is a negligent handler--however, drawing conclusions
>> or saying that the handler should be scrutinized cannot be determined
>> with the scant information we have about the situation.
>> Finally, I doubt that the handler "let" their dog attack the other. As
>> said, if it was unexpected, the handler might have lost control, and it
>> is unwise to try and regain control during a dog fight.
>> Robert Hooper
>> Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu
>> The Ohio State University
>> 0653 Buckeye-Cuyahoga CT
>> 653 Cuyahoga Court
>> Columbus, Ohio 43210
>> (740) 856-8195
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:26 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>
>> Yes, because the thing is that you are supposed to be able to control
>> your dog! You are supposed to do this under all circumstances. Those
>> whom have pet dogs that do this can be sued and have to pay fines or in
>> some circumstances go to jail! There is no excuse for letting your dog
>> attack another dog! If its the dog fault, the handler should know
>> his-her dog well enough to keep it out of those situations! If the dog
>> was offleash, he gets what he gets! If not black listed then certainly
>> observed very carefuly when next going through a training program! I
>> know folks who have had guide dogs that value a little aggression. I
>> don't believe in any aggressive dog who's handler can't control it. I'm
>> suggesting that sence the dog and handler are both members of a team,
>> they should know each other and how they will react! A new team might
>> get some leanency because they might not know each other well but
>> otherwise. This society puts down dogs who become aggressive to humans.
>> The assumption I am making is that both parties should have had control
>> of there dogs and the one who was the attacker should have been
>> controlled! Nothing hard or complicated about that!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Meghan Whalen" <mewhalen at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>
>>
>>> Wow...this message sure is full of assumptions. The person should be
>>> black listed because he or she received a dog which attacked another
>>> dog.
>>> I do not think dogs are taught aggression. I think dogs will be dogs,
>>> and it is very unfortunate that this happened, but in no way,
>>> what-so-ever does that mean this handler should never have a guide
>>> again. My first guide bit one of my pet dogs. I should probably have
>>> never been given another dog, then, I suppose. I must have taught her
>>> to bite. Shame on me.
>>>
>>> I am sorry this message comes off as rude, but I am really really
>>> tired of people assuming it is the person's fault. We talk about
>>> wanting to be treated fairly and equally by guide dog training
>>> programs. We say that we are adults and should be treated as such,
>>> and then, more than one person I have come across automatically blames
>>> the handler. If I buy a new microwave, and I bring it home and plug
>>> it in and it doesn't work, did I do something wrong? No, there was a
>>> problem with the manufacturing of the product. If I bring a dog home,
>>> and that dog does not guide effectively, or she barks and/or growls at
>>> other dogs, that is not my fault, either.
>>> That does not mean I should not work with the dog to improve the
>>> problems if it seems they could be fixed, but the handler is not
>>> always responsible for what the dog does or does not know. Please
>>> recall that before a dog is matched with a blind person, the dog has
>>> had a year and a half to two years growing and learning and having
>>> experiences we will never know about. I am very disappointed in
>>> people who would not wish to be treated in exactly the way they are
>>> treating people who cannot defend themselves.
>>>
>>> Meghan
>>> On 4/24/2012 4:45 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>>>> Oh, thats bad! Guides are deffinetely not supposed to do that! I
>>>> think both schools should be contacted and the case should be taken to
>>>> court.
>>>> I get the feeling that someone really relaxed there control of there
>>>> dog!
>>>> The attacker should be subject to the fullness of the law! And maybe
>>>> even black listed with all of the schools!
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Johnson"
>>>> <blinddog3 at charter.net>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 12:17 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Julie,
>>>>> Both dogs were guides. What I do not know if they were both in
>>>>> harness, but both students were attending the blind skills training
>>>>> program and had their guides there as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 9:37 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd find out who the owner of the dog was. If there are state laws
>>>>> addressing this issue, I'd have a visit with the police and file the
>>>>> appropriate paperwork.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea what I'd do about my own dog though. Probably take
>>>>> it very easy for a while. then very gently introduce calm, gentle
>>>>> dogs to see how it went.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or was the other dog also a guide? I wasn't exactly sure from your
>>>>> description of things. I don't know that that would substantially
>>>>> change my approach, except that I might also let the program know
>>>>> that I was filing a report with the police.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>> On 4/23/2012 5:51 PM, Steven Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> Another what would you do question, or maybe, how would you respond
>>>>>> scenarios for you all to ponder. Many times, we hear of guides and
>>>>>> other service dogs being attacked by other stray or uncontrolled
>>>>>> dogs, rendering the attacked dog unable to continue in their line of
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>> Today, I learned from a colleague at work, that her son's good
>>>>>> friend, who is blind and attending a formal blind training program,
>>>>>> had his dog viciously attacked by another dog. The injuries were
>>>>>> severe, the attacked was unprovoked and the trainers had to break
>>>>>> up the fight, but the guide that was attacked, is now showing very
>>>>>> serious signs of fear
>>>>> and anxiety.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would you do if you were the handler?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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