[nagdu] Success in Posting to the List

Wed Aug 1 01:45:44 UTC 2012

Hi, Brenda,

Well, I guess both of our issues are cleared up at least for the moment.  I
could not post new messages or reply to others' messages at a couple of
points.  I haven't heard back from David, so I don't know whether I owe the
present success to some magic that he has performed on my behalf, or whether
the Internet gods are just in a good mood today.  But in either case, I am
grateful to whomever or whatever is responsible for the change.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Brenda
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:21 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Success in Posting to the List

Hi Ann
I have had similar problems in the past where I could send a new post but
not reply to one.  I'm replying to your post so if it appears on the list
then the problem for me is fixed too.
Brenda

On 7/31/2012 6:55 PM, Ann Edie wrote:
> Hi, Marsha, David, and List,
>
> Judging from the fact that the below message did indeed appear on the 
> list, I conclude that I am now once again fully connected to the NAGDU 
> list.  I have been having problems off and on sending messages to the 
> list, even in reply to posted messages.  My messages have been 
> rejected as junk mail, according to the notices I have received.  Has 
> anyone else been experiencing such problems recently, or is it just me?
>
> I hope the problem is now truly solved.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Family and Friends Accepting Person with Guide Dog; was:
> ...Civility
>
> Hi, Melissa and Everyone,
>
>
>
> I don't think this type of thing happens too often to guide dog 
> handlers in places of public accommodation, unless the establishment 
> is owned/run by persons whose culture views dogs as unclean or 
> unsuitable for indoor presence, because most people know about guide 
> dogs and admire the work they do.  However, I think it may happen more 
> often to persons with other disabilities who use service dogs, 
> especially persons with disabilities which are not immediately 
> apparent to the casual observer, such as the person in the story about 
> the change of service at the diner when she appeared with her service 
> dog, because there is some doubt in the minds of the facility management
that the use of the animal is legitimate.
>
>
>
> I do think that quite a few blind people find that some of their 
> friends or relatives might not accept the dog at first or even never, 
> or might treat them differently once they have a guide dog, because 
> the use of the dog does subtley change the relationship between the 
> blind person and his/her family members and friends.  Some may not be 
> able to accept the greater independence and confidence of the blind 
> person, and some may just not like dogs and not want to spend much 
> time with someone who always brings the dog along.  Some people just 
> don't like the smell, hair, licking, toenails scratching, 
> tail-wagging, and who knows what else about dogs and just can't stand 
> to have a dog around them, no matter how well they liked the blind person
before he/she got the guide dog.
>
>
>
> As to how it should be handled, this is an individual decision and 
> depends on the relationship between the people.  It is certainly 
> important to have discussions before getting a guide dog with those 
> with whom one lives or is very close, to make sure that one 
> understands how the other people feel about one's obtaining a guide 
> dog.  Most of the guide dog programs have materials which can be used 
> to start such discussions with one's family members and close friends.  
> Usually, family members are thrilled to have a highly-trained and very 
> friendly canine join their family or circle of friends, and the 
> biggest problem the new dog handler will have is keeping his family 
> members and friends from taking liberties and trying to become too 
> friendly with the dog.  If someone close to the prospective handler 
> absolutely cannot live with the person's decision to get a guide dog, 
> then the blind person has to make the judgment as to which is more 
> important to him/her, the choice of a mobility technique that 
> maximizes his/her independence, confidence, and opportunity to pursue 
> his/her life goals, or the relationship with the person who cannot 
> accept the dog.  Things are not usually quite so black-and-white, though,
and compromises can usually be made.
>
>
>
> Before one gets a guide dog, it is also important to have some 
> discussion with the management of one's place of employment, although 
> this conversation is different because it is not meant to elicit the 
> feelings of the management on the subject of one's getting the dog 
> guide, but to inform the management that one is exercising his/her 
> right to have the dog in the work environment as a reasonable 
> accommodation, and to clarify how persons in the workplace are to
interact, or not interact, with the dog and its handler.
> It is hard to know whether having a guide dog enhances or decreases 
> one's attractiveness to a prospective employer, or if it has any 
> bearing on one's chances for employment above and beyond the fact of one's
blindness as such.
> But I think it can go either way, again, depending on the particular 
> place of employment and individual managers.
>
>
>
> My own agency would be thrilled to employ persons with disabilities 
> who use service animals.  Even before I came to the agency, there was 
> an office dog, who happened to be a pet of one of the office staff.  
> Now, besides that dog, one of our Directors regularly brings her dog 
> (which she is trying to train to be a therapy dog) to the office.  And 
> everyone is excited whenever I am at the office with Panda.  But not 
> all employers have this kind of attitude, of course.  But they all 
> must obey the law, regardless of their personal preferences.  There 
> may have to be some adjustments to office arrangements or schedules if 
> there are other employees present with legitimate dog allergies which 
> rise to the level of a disability.  And of course, the dog must be 
> clean and well-behaved, so as to reflect well upon the company as well 
> as the individual handler, especially if the work involves contact 
> with customers or the public in general.  But basically, the employer 
> does not have the prerogative of saying that they are glad to employ you,
but not if you choose to be accompanied by a service dog.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Ann
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of melissa padron
>
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 11:54 AM
>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>
>
>
> Is it common for guide dog users to encounter this type of situation? 
> Say a business, family member, or friend were fine with the individual 
> before a guide dog, but then once the person gets a guide dog they 
> ignore them or show negativity towards them or whatever you want to 
> call it. How should this type of situation be handled?
>
>
>
> I don't have a guide dog so I can't really draw from my own
experiences....
>
>
>
> Melissa
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Vanessa Lowery<vlowery at dhr.state.md.us>
>
> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:16 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>
> Well, don't know about others, but I don't patronize a place of 
> business to determine if I win a popularity contest based on the 
> pesence of absence of my guide dog.  I go because I want service, and 
> I use a guide dog.  They can jsut get over it, for all I care.  If 
> they serve me with the nastiest attitude they can conjur up, more power to
them as long as I am served.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>
> Adult and Community Services Division
>
> Adult Services Screening Unit
>
> 410-853-3550
>
> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"<REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>  7/30/2012
>>>> 1:34 PM>>>
> But it sounds like this woman wants the staff to like her. They don't 
> for whatever reason when she's got the dog with her. Talking to them 
> won't make them like her and it is the liking she wants.
>
> Many people leave their dogs home for Bible study.
>
> This really is no different.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Vanessa Lowery
>
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:02 PM
>
> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List
>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>
>
>
> If this is a service dog, and she needs to dog to perform certain 
> tasks, what would be the logic in leaving the dog at home in order to 
> go to the restaurant?  I wonder if there are some missing pieces to 
> this story.  But I'm certainly not going to leave my dog at home just 
> because the staff has a bee up ther (you fill in the blank) because they
don't like me nor my dog.
> They will serve me like they should any other customer, and if they 
> don't, I would ahve a little chat with the Better Busines Bureau.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>
> Adult and Community Services Division
>
> Adult Services Screening Unit
>
> 410-853-3550
>
> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"<REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>  7/30/2012
>>>> 11:51 AM>>>
> I wonder what would happen if she just went to the diner without her dog?
>
> I'm also wondering how many people we're talking about. Four or five?? 
> It hurts but isn't that many.
>
> I also wonder what's going on, and wonder why if this places means so 
> much to her she just doesn't go without the dog?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Lyn Gwizdak
>
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 1:18 PM
>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>
>
>
> Strange case.  I wonder what is...the rest of the story.  It is very 
> odd that a place of business where everyone there - employees and 
> customers alike - were friendly pre-dog and nasty post-dog.  It really
makes no sense.
>
> you might find one of two employees or a customer or two, but EVERYONE 
> becoming nasty?
>
>
>
> Are there anyone on this list who knows the place and might like to 
> just go in and see what happens?
>
>
>
> Lyn and Landon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ginger Kutsch"<GingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 9:09 AM
>
> Subject: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility
>
>
>
>
>
>> Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility By ADAM KLASFELD
>> Source: http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/07/27/48772.htm
>> MANHATTAN (CN) - A New York City diner did not discriminate against a 
>> disabled woman who said that waiters gave her a cold shoulder once 
>> she starting bringing a service dog into the restaurant, an appellate 
>> court ruled.
>>      Cheryl Krist, whose combination of asthma, arthritis and tremor 
>> has hurt her mobility since 2003, bought the dog five years later to 
>> cope with her symptoms.
>>      At the time, she said, she had been a loyal customer of the 
>> Coopertown Diner, owned by Michael Kolombos and his self-named 
>> corporation, for nearly two decades.
>>      "Coopertown, for Krist, had been 'like... Cheers... you went in 
>> and you knew people and people knew you and you were friendly and 
>> everything was fine,'" the appellate court summarized, quoting the 
>> trial transcript.
>>      But she said that "all went right out the window" after she 
>> brought the dog, according to the court.
>>      The 2nd Circuit decision, written by Judge Amalya Kearse and 
>> co-signed by Judges Susan Carney and Clifford Wallace, outlines what 
>> the undisputed trial evidence showed.
>>      "The first time she took the dog to the restaurant, Joe Mugno, a 
>> waiter with whom she frequently had had lunch, asked her if her dog 
>> was a service dog, using a tone of skepticism. Krist responded that 
>> it was a service dog, and she and Mugno had no further conversations 
>> about the dog; but Mugno never had lunch with her again. Krist 
>> testified that on this occasion, none of the other employees of the 
>> restaurant spoke to her, even to exchange pleasantries. In addition, 
>> one of the customers, who had sat with Krist every day she was at 
>> Coopertown for 10 years, refused to sit with her, never sat with her 
>> again, and stopped speaking to her.
>>      "Krist also testified that there were incidents in which 
>> [co-owners Fotios] Batas or Michael Kolombos 'yelled' at her. Thus, 
>> on her second visit to Coopertown with the dog, a few days after the 
>> first, Batas, from behind the counter on the opposite side of the 
>> restaurant, stared at the dog and made growling sounds," the decision 
>> states.
>>      At one point, Krist and Batas quarreled about whether the dog
barked.
>> She claimed it made a "boof" sound, but he still ordered her to leave 
>> the restaurant.
>>      After more such incidents, Krist says she decided to stop going 
>> to Coopertown in September 2009, and she filed a federal lawsuit 
>> seeking punitive damages and an injunction.
>>      U.S. District Judge George Daniels found after a three-day bench 
>> trial that Krist showed "no evidence that any of these owners of this 
>> restaurant or employees of this restaurant treated plaintiff any 
>> differently because she was disabled.
>>      "There is no evidence of that from the 20 years before she had 
>> the dog, and there is no evidence of that when she got the dog," he 
>> emphasized.
>>      The judge added that the Americans with Disabilities Act was 
>> intended to safeguard access, not friendliness.
>>      "The ADA doesn't prohibit the conduct at issue here, complaining 
>> about the dog's handling and the dog's behavior, even if done in a 
>> rude and insensitive manner -if I could even characterize it as that,"
>> Daniels wrote.
>> "[That] is not what the ADA is intended to reach. This may have been 
>> thought of like Cheers, but the ADA does not guarantee that kind of 
>> atmosphere.
>> The
>> ADA prohibits discrimination and denial of use and enjoyment of 
>> public facilities."
>>      The three-judge panel agreed with this reading of the 
>> statute."We reject Krist's contention that Title III imposes a 
>> civility code, and we see no error in the findings or conclusion of the
district court,"
>> the decision states.
>> HomeBack to Top
>> Courthouse News ServicePrivacy Policy Search RSS About Us 
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