[nagdu] Success in Posting to the List

Wed Aug 1 14:49:23 UTC 2012

Annie,

Sorry I didn't get to your message in time. But when I did see it, you were
posting on the list. Glad whatever is fixed now. Happy posting!

Marsha 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Ann Edie
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:56 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: nagdu-owner at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nagdu] Success in Posting to the List

Hi, Marsha, David, and List,

Judging from the fact that the below message did indeed appear on the list,
I conclude that I am now once again fully connected to the NAGDU list.  I
have been having problems off and on sending messages to the list, even in
reply to posted messages.  My messages have been rejected as junk mail,
according to the notices I have received.  Has anyone else been experiencing
such problems recently, or is it just me?

I hope the problem is now truly solved.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Ann Edie
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:40 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Family and Friends Accepting Person with Guide Dog; was:
...Civility

Hi, Melissa and Everyone,

I don't think this type of thing happens too often to guide dog handlers in
places of public accommodation, unless the establishment is owned/run by
persons whose culture views dogs as unclean or unsuitable for indoor
presence, because most people know about guide dogs and admire the work they
do.  However, I think it may happen more often to persons with other
disabilities who use service dogs, especially persons with disabilities
which are not immediately apparent to the casual observer, such as the
person in the story about the change of service at the diner when she
appeared with her service dog, because there is some doubt in the minds of
the facility management that the use of the animal is legitimate.

I do think that quite a few blind people find that some of their friends or
relatives might not accept the dog at first or even never, or might treat
them differently once they have a guide dog, because the use of the dog does
subtley change the relationship between the blind person and his/her family
members and friends.  Some may not be able to accept the greater
independence and confidence of the blind person, and some may just not like
dogs and not want to spend much time with someone who always brings the dog
along.  Some people just don't like the smell, hair, licking, toenails
scratching, tail-wagging, and who knows what else about dogs and just can't
stand to have a dog around them, no matter how well they liked the blind
person before he/she got the guide dog.

As to how it should be handled, this is an individual decision and depends
on the relationship between the people.  It is certainly important to have
discussions before getting a guide dog with those with whom one lives or is
very close, to make sure that one understands how the other people feel
about one's obtaining a guide dog.  Most of the guide dog programs have
materials which can be used to start such discussions with one's family
members and close friends.  Usually, family members are thrilled to have a
highly-trained and very friendly canine join their family or circle of
friends, and the biggest problem the new dog handler will have is keeping
his family members and friends from taking liberties and trying to become
too friendly with the dog.  If someone close to the prospective handler
absolutely cannot live with the person's decision to get a guide dog, then
the blind person has to make the judgment as to which is more important to
him/her, the choice of a mobility technique that maximizes his/her
independence, confidence, and opportunity to pursue his/her life goals, or
the relationship with the person who cannot accept the dog.  Things are not
usually quite so black-and-white, though, and compromises can usually be
made.

Before one gets a guide dog, it is also important to have some discussion
with the management of one's place of employment, although this conversation
is different because it is not meant to elicit the feelings of the
management on the subject of one's getting the dog guide, but to inform the
management that one is exercising his/her right to have the dog in the work
environment as a reasonable accommodation, and to clarify how persons in the
workplace are to interact, or not interact, with the dog and its handler.
It is hard to know whether having a guide dog enhances or decreases one's
attractiveness to a prospective employer, or if it has any bearing on one's
chances for employment above and beyond the fact of one's blindness as such.
But I think it can go either way, again, depending on the particular place
of employment and individual managers.

My own agency would be thrilled to employ persons with disabilities who use
service animals.  Even before I came to the agency, there was an office dog,
who happened to be a pet of one of the office staff.  Now, besides that dog,
one of our Directors regularly brings her dog (which she is trying to train
to be a therapy dog) to the office.  And everyone is excited whenever I am
at the office with Panda.  But not all employers have this kind of attitude,
of course.  But they all must obey the law, regardless of their personal
preferences.  There may have to be some adjustments to office arrangements
or schedules if there are other employees present with legitimate dog
allergies which rise to the level of a disability.  And of course, the dog
must be clean and well-behaved, so as to reflect well upon the company as
well as the individual handler, especially if the work involves contact with
customers or the public in general.  But basically, the employer does not
have the prerogative of saying that they are glad to employ you, but not if
you choose to be accompanied by a service dog.

Best,

Ann

-----Original Message-----

From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of melissa padron

Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 11:54 AM

To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users

Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility

Is it common for guide dog users to encounter this type of situation? Say a
business, family member, or friend were fine with the individual before a
guide dog, but then once the person gets a guide dog they ignore them or
show negativity towards them or whatever you want to call it. How should
this type of situation be handled? 

I don't have a guide dog so I can't really draw from my own experiences.... 

Melissa 

________________________________

From: Vanessa Lowery <vlowery at dhr.state.md.us>

To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>

Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:16 PM

Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility

Well, don't know about others, but I don't patronize a place of business to
determine if I win a popularity contest based on the pesence of absence of
my guide dog.  I go because I want service, and I use a guide dog.  They can
jsut get over it, for all I care.  If they serve me with the nastiest
attitude they can conjur up, more power to them as long as I am served.  

Vanessa Lowery, LGSW

Adult and Community Services Division

Adult Services Screening Unit

410-853-3550

VLowery at dhr.state.md.us

>>> "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com> 7/30/2012

>>> 1:34 PM >>>

But it sounds like this woman wants the staff to like her. They don't for
whatever reason when she's got the dog with her. Talking to them won't make
them like her and it is the liking she wants. 

Many people leave their dogs home for Bible study. 

This really is no different. 

-----Original Message-----

From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Vanessa Lowery

Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:02 PM

To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List

Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility

If this is a service dog, and she needs to dog to perform certain tasks,
what would be the logic in leaving the dog at home in order to go to the
restaurant?  I wonder if there are some missing pieces to this story.  But
I'm certainly not going to leave my dog at home just because the staff has a
bee up ther (you fill in the blank) because they don't like me nor my dog.
They will serve me like they should any other customer, and if they don't, I
would ahve a little chat with the Better Busines Bureau.

Vanessa Lowery, LGSW

Adult and Community Services Division

Adult Services Screening Unit

410-853-3550

VLowery at dhr.state.md.us 

>>> "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com> 7/30/2012

>>> 11:51 AM >>>

I wonder what would happen if she just went to the diner without her dog?

I'm also wondering how many people we're talking about. Four or five?? It
hurts but isn't that many.

I also wonder what's going on, and wonder why if this places means so much
to her she just doesn't go without the dog?

-----Original Message-----

From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Lyn Gwizdak

Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 1:18 PM

To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users

Subject: Re: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility

Strange case.  I wonder what is...the rest of the story.  It is very odd
that a place of business where everyone there - employees and customers
alike - were friendly pre-dog and nasty post-dog.  It really makes no sense.

you might find one of two employees or a customer or two, but EVERYONE
becoming nasty?

Are there anyone on this list who knows the place and might like to just go
in and see what happens?

Lyn and Landon

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ginger Kutsch" <GingerKutsch at yahoo.com>

To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"

<nagdu at nfbnet.org>

Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 9:09 AM

Subject: [nagdu] Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility

> Diner Must Provide Access, Not Civility

> 

> By ADAM KLASFELD

> 

> Source: http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/07/27/48772.htm

> 

> MANHATTAN (CN) - A New York City diner did not discriminate against a

> disabled woman who said that waiters gave her a cold shoulder once she

> starting bringing a service dog into the restaurant, an appellate

> court ruled.

> 

>     Cheryl Krist, whose combination of asthma, arthritis and tremor

>has hurt her mobility since 2003, bought the dog five years later to

>cope with her symptoms.

> 

>     At the time, she said, she had been a loyal customer of the

>Coopertown Diner, owned by Michael Kolombos and his self-named

>corporation, for nearly two decades.

> 

>     "Coopertown, for Krist, had been 'like... Cheers... you went in

>and you knew people and people knew you and you were friendly and

>everything was fine,'" the appellate court summarized, quoting the

>trial transcript.

> 

>     But she said that "all went right out the window" after she

>brought the dog, according to the court.

> 

>     The 2nd Circuit decision, written by Judge Amalya Kearse and

>co-signed by Judges Susan Carney and Clifford Wallace, outlines what

>the undisputed trial evidence showed.

> 

>     "The first time she took the dog to the restaurant, Joe Mugno, a

>waiter with whom she frequently had had lunch, asked her if her dog was

>a service dog, using a tone of skepticism. Krist responded that it was

>a service dog, and she and Mugno had no further conversations about the

>dog; but Mugno never had lunch with her again. Krist testified that on

>this occasion, none of the other employees of the restaurant spoke to

>her, even to exchange pleasantries. In addition, one of the customers,

>who had sat with Krist every day she was at Coopertown for 10 years,

>refused to sit with her, never sat with her again, and stopped speaking

>to her.

> 

>     "Krist also testified that there were incidents in which

>[co-owners Fotios] Batas or Michael Kolombos 'yelled' at her. Thus, on

>her second visit to Coopertown with the dog, a few days after the

>first, Batas, from behind the counter on the opposite side of the

>restaurant, stared at the dog and made growling sounds," the decision

>states.

> 

>     At one point, Krist and Batas quarreled about whether the dog barked.

> She claimed it made a "boof" sound, but he still ordered her to leave

>the restaurant.

> 

>     After more such incidents, Krist says she decided to stop going to

>Coopertown in September 2009, and she filed a federal lawsuit seeking

>punitive damages and an injunction.

> 

>     U.S. District Judge George Daniels found after a three-day bench

>trial that Krist showed "no evidence that any of these owners of this

>restaurant or employees of this restaurant treated plaintiff any

>differently because she was disabled.

> 

>     "There is no evidence of that from the 20 years before she had the

>dog, and there is no evidence of that when she got the dog," he

>emphasized.

> 

>     The judge added that the Americans with Disabilities Act was

>intended to safeguard access, not friendliness.

> 

>     "The ADA doesn't prohibit the conduct at issue here, complaining

>about the dog's handling and the dog's behavior, even if done in a rude

>and insensitive manner -if I could even characterize it as that,"

> Daniels wrote.

> "[That] is not what the ADA is intended to reach. This may have been

>thought of like Cheers, but the ADA does not guarantee that kind of

>atmosphere.

> The

> ADA prohibits discrimination and denial of use and enjoyment of public

>facilities."

> 

>     The three-judge panel agreed with this reading of the statute."We

>reject Krist's contention that Title III imposes a civility code, and

>we see no error in the findings or conclusion of the district court,"

> the decision states.

> 

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